16 replies to this topic

[danbean]

Hi Guys. A few questions to anyone who can help with this-any answers/ideas/pointers greatly appreciated-I'm very confused.

It seems strange how difficult it is to get information on any UK forum or official source about standards, regulations etc that prospective (and existing) e-liquid manufacturers have to consider and abide by before they start making and selling their wares. I have often considered the sideline option of making and selling my own eliquids, which I already make from natural extracts and give to friends, who have suggested I sell them, but I have found that the lack of online information on the legal/business side of the topic pours cold water on any further investigation every time. Is everyone already in the trade keeping quiet, or is it just the fact that there are no clear regulations or sources of information available yet on the legal aspects of setting up and running an e-liquid business? Does a UK e-liquid mixer/seller need a fully-equipped chemical laboratory or just a clean house and a paypal account?

If I wanted to make and sell my own honey, or hamburgers out of a van at Glastonbury, I would have ready access to a wealth of knowledge on the topic from a variety of both official and casual sources, and would get my hands slapped pretty fast if I slacked in the area of food hygiene etc. Can the same be said for e-liquid producers? Which organisation, if any, ultimately regulates the production of these products? I can’t see anything on the FSA site or anywhere else. I have seen that some producers present certificates. Is there a central body? Does e-liquid production fall under the same regs as food production?

This lack of info also affects me as a consumer: If I buy a bottle of liquid from Smokerinos (I made that up- don't google it) in Bristol for example, how do I know that this stuff hasn't been mixed by an enthusiastic, grubby-fingered teenager in a filthy attic? I know that vaping is still a new thing and laws and regs have yet to catch up, but it seems we are all a bit too trusting (or daring) when it comes to buying stuff that we happily inhale all day long without a thought of what exactly went into it or who mixed it.

Another thing is the the lack of ingredients lists on liquid bottles: in my limited experience of vaping so far, any tobacco essence that tastes in any way like tobacco, does so because it actually contains tobacco extract. I found this out recently when I bought a job lot of Hangsen liquids direct from China. Unlike any of the UK suppliers I bought from previoiusly, this wholesaler threw in an info leaflet which gave a detailed description of the product and ingredients used to produce it. If I hadn't read this leaflet, I would never have found out that these liquids contained Tobacco Absolute (Burley/Oriental) as the main flavour base in almost all their essences- essences which make up a huge proportion of "realistic" tobacco e-liquids sold in UK. How many new vapers would be happy about the fact that they were still ingesting tobacco juice? Many, I guess would rather prefer the idea that they were giving up tobacco products altogether in favour of a product which contained a base carrier, food flavouring and nicotine. Either way, they should know what they are vaping.

To summarise: Are we going to see labeling/info leaflets with orders soon? Where can consumers find out whether a manufacturer is legit or not? Where can prospective mixers/sellers go to get info on how to set up in business without putting themselves or consumers' health at risk?

Cheers in advance for any advice, and please excuse and feel free to correct any ignorance on my part- I'm still pretty new to this!

Dan

Edited by danbean, 25 October 2011 - 11:56 PM.

[Rusty]

Great post Dan!

I cannot help you here but I would suggest that you contact ECITA, Vapers Network or ECCA. I'm sure that one of the three may be able to point you in the right direction.


Rusty

Edited by Rusty, 26 October 2011 - 01:07 PM.

[Pikeybarsteward]

I think theres established guidelines for bottling and packaging .From an ethical point of view you need to look at TSNA levels in your liquids . For instance oriental tobaccos are low TSNA but burleys are high in TSNA carcinogens (I THINK) .There are ways to minmize any carcinogenic risk and still have convincing tobacco flavour ..... I m working on it at the moment and I m happy to share any info I unearth . For peace of mind a sterile dedicated production enviroment is advisable and I d suspect the Health and Safety food production standards would apply to any commercial enterprise .Vendors are bound to be tightlipped about their valuble experiences : its commercial sense .....

[Kate]

In the UK, CE mark standards, The Poisons Act 1972, The General Product Safety Regulations 2005 and CHIP regulations apply. ECITA can tell you what you need to know to be a trader but you may have to fork out a membership fee. Your local Trading Standards officer is another source of information, they should be able to tell you what regs apply and how they may be implemented.

Good luck with it Dan.

[danbean]

Thank you for those great responses Rusty, Pikey and Kate -that was just what I was looking for. Please feel free to add to this thread as long as it stays open or PM me - I'll keep checking over the next few days/weeks so it won't be a wasted effort. I may get back to you with more questions.

Thanks again

Dan

Edited by danbean, 26 October 2011 - 06:37 PM.

[Pikeybarsteward]

Sound Dan let us know how you get on with ECITA . I m vaguely playing around with the notion of doing 'real' tobacco flavours and Whole Tobacco Alkaloid juice (in fact I made some t'other day) but I reckon the legislation would hogtie me before I got started ! Its fascinating stuff tho .....and a useful vent for my surplus addiction .

[inijames]

It's not a job to be undertaken lightly, but there are dodgy people in the UK making e-liquid. My colleague Mike was approached by one seller and somehow found out he was making e-liquid in his garden shed from pesticide grade nicotine. I wouldn't personally buy e-liquid from a seller in the UK unless it was made by an approved lab, preferably a member of ECITA.

[Pikeybarsteward]

Lol , thats good nicotine .....but it must have been well old ....and so damn dangerous to handle and mix . I ll probably pick up a few litres of 7.5 while I m abroad in India . I ll take out the PG I like and get the chemist to do the business with it , they re trained after all and I m not crazy enough to mess with pure nic .

[Kenny]

inijames, on 26 October 2011 - 09:43 PM, said:

It's not a job to be undertaken lightly, but there are dodgy people in the UK making e-liquid. My colleague Mike was approached by one seller and somehow found out he was making e-liquid in his garden shed from pesticide grade nicotine. I wouldn't personally buy e-liquid from a seller in the UK unless it was made by an approved lab, preferably a member of ECITA.

I don't believe I am reading this. If this is true you should name names on the forum and report to the authorities as this is a dangerous practice.

[googled]

inijames, on 26 October 2011 - 09:43 PM, said:

It's not a job to be undertaken lightly, but there are dodgy people in the UK making e-liquid. My colleague Mike was approached by one seller and somehow found out he was making e-liquid in his garden shed from pesticide grade nicotine. I wouldn't personally buy e-liquid from a seller in the UK unless it was made by an approved lab, preferably a member of ECITA.

It's been banned for use in pesticides since 2009.

[Kate]

If it's not pharmaceutical grade it's too dodgy to inhale. Same as propylene glycol and glycerine, should be pharma grade because of the impurities in industrial grade stuff.

Just in case anyone is interested (and off topic) there's a consumer test kit now for nicotine strength: http://eliquidtest.com/ I'll bet quite a few retailers will be caught out with improper measures if this catches on.

[Jackie]

Wow, that's...very concerning to say the least, and I agree the seller should be reported if he hasn't already been.

Also, thanks for that link Kate, interesting. Have many folk used it yet do you know?

[Pikeybarsteward]

The nic test is a useful package , I looked into the strength testing a while back(with my DIY leanings its inevitable I suppose ) and give it up as too much hassle ..... especially when we re all possesed with a highly discriminating inbuilt system (our addictions ) to assess any liquid . With an unknown you can just dilute to absolute safety , use and then just work back .diluting less each time ....

I wasnt aware there was much difference between agricultural nicotine and the stuff we use in our fluids .... I would have thought the greater danger would lay in hamfisted inexpert mixing . However Kates not in the habit( ) of being wrong so I ll have to look into it further .(sorry folks about the nun joke )

If this kit is legal to import I ll have to get one . My WTA extractions are a serious undertaking and I d like to assess their efficacy . This is another thread Vapedude(industrial chemist ) should have a squint at when he get back off his oil rig shift .

[Kate]

The only feedback I've seen for the nicotine test kit is this video linked on the sellers website, Jackie. I'd like to hear more but word hasn't spread much about it yet as far as I can tell.

[Jackie]

Ah, on the ebay listing it states they don't ship internationally, so I guess we'll have to wait for our friends across the pond to road test it.

[inijames]

Quote

It's been banned for use in pesticides since 2009.

It may well have been in 2009 - we've been going since 2008. I will check with Mike and get the full story. We are currently working sourcing our UK liquid from Decadent Vapors, who use EU sourced pharmaceutical liquid. They're approved by ECITA, and when Trading Standards visited them they didn't find anything to complain about!

[Crundy]

I guess the best rules to stick to would be to only use pharmaceutical grade nicotine, PG & VG, and to only use verified vape-safe flavorings. If you add water, make sure it's distilled or reverse osmosis water.