26 replies to this topic

[shpaolin]

I found various articles all over the internet about the side effects of teflon.
And i saw many attys that use teflon for isolation. So here is one article.
If anyone knows more please share. I use it in the kitchen to. So this is realy upsetting.


Teflon is the trademarked name for Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE). This chemical, which makes things “non-stick” in its use here, should be classified as a “likely carcinogen” (cancer-causing substance) according to some advisers to the EPA. You would think that that should be enough to get the EPA to ban its use in tons of products, but alas no…they have just decided that the companies using Teflon should make it less likely to break down. Huh? Yep, in effect, everybody can keep using Teflon as long as they figure out a way to keep it from leeching into everything that it is used in…cookware, clothes, pizza boxes, microwave popcorn bags, your mouth, etc. And companies have until 2015 to do so. I can’t wait to see what type of chemical they come up with to make it “safer” and what that new chemical will do to us.

See, within two to five minutes on a stove, cookware coated with Teflon can exceed temperatures at which the teflon coating breaks apart and emits toxic particles and gases linked to thousands of pet bird deaths and an unknown number of human illnesses each year. Sounds safe, right? From the Environmental Working Group:

“In new tests conducted by a university food safety professor, a generic non-stick frying pan preheated on a conventional, electric stovetop burner reached 736°F in three minutes and 20 seconds, with temperatures still rising when the tests were terminated. A Teflon pan reached 721°F in just five minutes under the same test conditions (See Figure 1), as measured by a commercially available infrared thermometer. DuPont studies show that the Teflon offgases toxic particulates at 446°F. At 680°F Teflon pans release at least six toxic gases, including two carcinogens, two global pollutants, and MFA, a chemical lethal to humans at low doses. At temperatures that DuPont scientists claim are reached on stovetop drip pans (1000°F), non-stick coatings break down to a chemical warfare agent known as PFIB, and a chemical analog of the WWII nerve gas phosgene.“

Well that certainly sounds safe, no? A few years back I switched to stainless steel pots and pans and have not looked back. They might take a little bit longer to clean up, but it is worth it knowing I am not cooking any additional chemicals into my food, never mind releasing more dangerous gases into the air. If you have pans coated with Teflon, I would really advise you to get rid of them and buy stainless steel or cast iron ones; even the cheap ones from Target or somewhere like that are better than using the ones coated with Teflon. Multiple studies have shown how toxic this stuff is…would you like a side of polytetrafluoroethylene or perfluorooctanoic acid with your eggs? Did not think so. Teflon is toxic so avoid it at all costs.

[Phil A]

I wasn't aware of any atomisers that use teflon in them, but even if they do, I don't think the temperatures will get anywhere near the temperatures that cause breakdown

[shpaolin]

A lot of modders use it for isolation. I saw it on few genesis - genisis attys.
And i will not name names, becouse if i am wrong some people might get upset.

[Buckfasterfullerine]

Thats 338°C, only my Dad used to cook at that temperature

[shpaolin]

Ok, i found the few hundred articles about teflon side efects.
Read this please :

http://www.medicalne...leases/4716.php

[Buckfasterfullerine]

In what type of vaping scenario would you see Teflon getting to those kinds of temperatures, or is this a general warning about Teflon being used in the kitchen?

[shpaolin]

No. I was looking for isolation solution for mod with integrated genesis atty (Silver dog) that we are building.
And teflon was one of the materials that we consider using. And i start to search the internet
for any info about teflon. I read this articles about birds dieing , teflon flu etc...
So i asked a question , maybe someone knows more. I never messured what temperature mesh-kanthal
have on lets say 4.5V. So if anyone knows more that would be great. Thank you.

[Buckfasterfullerine]

If you scroll down this page you can see a chart for heat
http://physics.info/color/

[PapaLazarou]

Would the 'isolator' be in direct contact with the Kanthal wire in this design? The heating element can reach some pretty high temperatures if dry burnt (as the colour chart above suggests). When wet it's temperature is kept down by the liquid.

BTW for cooking with high heat, properly 'seasoned' carbon steel gives a non stick surface and doesn't break down with heat. My early attempts at Chinese wok cooking originally ruined many Teflon coated woks, as the coating breaks down too easily.

Edited by PapaLazarou, 29 December 2011 - 04:13 PM.

[shpaolin]

Thank you. it would be in direct contact with mesh. We will avoid it and look for another solution.
Thank you.

[Wartai]

wow.. learn something new everyday.. thnx for the info
Im glad all my pots etc are all Stainless Steel, but I know never to buy any Teflon, especially in Mods

[Harlequin69]

shpaolin, on 29 December 2011 - 04:25 PM, said:

Thank you. it would be in direct contact with mesh. We will avoid it and look for another solution.
Thank you.

I wouldn't avoid it, the mesh will not even be close to the breakdown temperature, the mesh is actually a pretty poor thermal conductor as you can test for yourself by holding a mesh tube in a flame till it's red/yellow hot. You can comfortably hold the mesh surprisingly close to the heated section, add to this the evaporative cooling effect from the juice and the mesh especially at the contact point to the atty will be pretty cool. Also the mod itself will conduct heat away from the contact point reasonably efficiently and it will get hot before the teflon reaches 338deg/c especially if you keep the teflon insulator quite thin.

Another way to look at it is the temperature the line reaches during a heavy vaping session that will be roughly the temperature the teflon will be exposed to.

[shpaolin]

But if there's a chance... No thanks.

[Pikeybarsteward]

I must admit , I wouldnt touch a mod with Teflon in the 'airstream' . During my ,ahem, misspent youth , I smoked a bit of teflon accidently in a bong , I coughed blood for days .... I wouldnt recommend it .....or cooking tobacco in the dark !

[spikeychops]

Thanks for the info...forewarned is forearmed and all that.

Another thing to think about is whether or not these nasty chemicals can leech out via chemical reactions with the juice or not.

Bugger it, just bought a new non stick pan too.

Next we'll find out anti-flu hand gel gives you bloody skin cancer.

[CobaltSky]

I'm not familiar with the particulars with regards to vaping but I've got some experience dealing with hazardous chemicals through my previous job. What you have to remember when evaluating any claims that a substance is bad for you is that everything is bad for you. What matter is the dose. The is a safe level of arsenic,asbestos, even plutonium. There is also a dangerous level of water, vitamin C and oxygen. Just because "Teflon pans release at least six toxic gases" doesn't mean that those gases are present in harmful quantities. Also note that in that study these gases were released at above 360 degrees Celsius; higher that any temperature I would care to cook at. It looks like they just put a dry pan over a burner and let it heat up, not a typical cooking situation. Indeed that is pretty much the worst thing you can do for your pans regardless of material.

As to the article that shpaolin posted, notice that it wasn't teflon that caused the illness but the chemical stock from which teflon is made. These chemicals undergo radical transformations during the reactions that ultimately result in the final product. Pear drops are considered a tasty treat but you wouldn't want to ingest the same quantities of its precursors.

I'd be pretty leery about using teflon products in a device like an ecig because I don't know how hot the element gets and you will be drawing all the gases into your lungs. This is a worst case toxic exposure situation, if there is a risk at all. But to say that teflon is inherently dangerous on the basis of some rather shaky research methodology is alarmist. On a forum dedicated to nicotine users I'd point out that we are all taking advantage of the fact that there is a safe dosage of toxic chemicals.

EDIT: Just had a quick search through PubMed (the best resource for this kind of thing) and the top results there indicate that actual migration of PFCs from cookware to food is hard to gauge. The consensus seems to be that if there is migration then its in very low quantities. It is true that if you get PFCs in your system then they are harmful, but that kind of situation is linked to the production facilities, not to the products themselves.

Edited by CobaltSky, 30 December 2011 - 11:41 PM.

[Pikeybarsteward]

Good post Cobalt (fecking forum softwares playing silly buggers again) ... but my experience put me off teflon for life , its just not a durable enough coating , you cant even lightly scrape it in cookware without losing some . I dont fancy ingesting anymore of that ...no matter how benign it might be in our applications .

[CobaltSky]

Oh I agree with that sentiment! I hate teflon coated cookware with a passion. In my opinion, if it isn't copper, iron or stainless steel then you have no business cooking with it I'm having a hard time getting decent pans in the UK for a reasonable price. The Chunnel is a lifesaver in that regard.

[shpaolin]

I do not know what is the temperature of kanthal and mesh setup on genesis atty but if there is a chance
that teflon can harm my health i will not put my self in that situation.
As for cooper in genesis - genisis attys i got a lot to add but then another discussion will open.

[spikeychops]

Cheers for clarifying cobalt.

It's always ever going to be a %'s game where big business is concerned anyway...imagine DuPont being sued by billions of people after they'd (hypothetically) discovered their coatings were to blame for the steady rise in cancers over the last 50 years or so...bye bye DuPont and a lot of others.

When were talking about the GDP of a large country in potential damages claims, i get a little uneasy about talk of 'minute quantities' and all that.

Results and testing are fine, if were only talking a couple of million, but trillions would be another story entirely i fear.

But that's the cynic in me coming out..better for my own piece of mind to ditch the stuff and cook with what you use..anyway, being the cook in my family, i've always wanted to treat myself to a nice posh set of copper bottomed pans, now's as good a time as any i s'pose.

That pear drops thing is acetone, isn't it cobalt? I knew there was a good reason i couldn't stand the things as a kid!

Edited by spikeychops, 31 December 2011 - 09:20 PM.