28 replies to this topic

[capnhack]

We are clearly of two minds on this and I don't think we will agree, but I will say this: If you send a shard of shrapnel flying into your eye whilst cutting down some metal you certainly will never forget or not bother to wear goggles again. It's common sense to use some kind of eye protection anyway, people know this, yet still the shrapnel ends up in the eyes.

When it comes to the suing stuff, since it isn't an instructional video on how to use power tools that kind of "this is how I was shown to do it" argument doesn't apply. The problem I have with hand holding from a litigious standpoint is that it not only keeps ambulance chasers in business by letting people think they can get away with (and get paid for) being idiots, but it also has no end point. Where's the line between letting other people see what you're doing and being responsible for the actions of those people? You couldn't reasonably, for example, sue the BBC for broadcasting footage of riots after you go out and start smashing up buildings, but yet there is no legal line saying that you can't try. It just ends up being up to the judge and there's always one who will allow any frivolous crap that comes their way, which leads to a gradual deterioration of the entire legal system until we end up like the USA. Getting off track a bit now, but I still firmly believe that a) there will always be idiots, b ) idiots learn best from mistakes with consequences, and c) nobody should cater to the aforementioned idiots but instead to the majority. If the majority is the idiots then it's already too late and we might as well outlaw power tools now.

Edited by capnhack, 03 February 2012 - 10:09 PM.

[garrydibley]

A few points .
The dremil comes with no safety guard out of the box, Mine was mounted in the correct dremil work stand.
The work stand was built for using the dremil on a work bench, again the work stand has no safety guard.

I pointed out when grinding the use of safety eye glasses.

The picture from my hand injury last year was caused by using the incorrect tool for the job and a cheap one.
I also addresses this in the show.

The drill through the thumb was caused by drilling a box in a vice. secured so that it would not move.
The drill bit hit the metal snapped and went through my thumb.
I now had hold them, my choice.

I will address this in tomorrow show.

[garrydibley]

Forgot, tune in to the show tomorrow at 1pm on VTTV

[DarthVaper]

[quote] If you send a shard of shrapnel flying into your eye whilst cutting down some metal you certainly will never forget or not bother to wear goggles again. It's common sense to use some kind of eye protection anyway, people know this, yet still the shrapnel ends up in the eyes. [/quote]

I've no problem about the safety glasses, because Garry did say he was using them. Now if someone doesn't use safety glasses, it's on there own back.

[quote] When it comes to the suing stuff, since it isn't an instructional video on how to use power tools that kind of "this is how I was shown to do it" argument doesn't apply. [/quote]

It's a video on how to build box mods.

[quote] The problem I have with hand holding from a litigious standpoint is that it not only keeps ambulance chasers in business by letting people think they can get away with (and get paid for) being idiots, but it also has no end point. [/quote]

'Hand holding' doesn't keep the ambulance chasers in business, it's the lack of 'hand holding' that keeps them in business. It's not 'hand holding' im refering to anyway, it's common safe practices. Things which have been taught to people since long before the ambulance chasers came along. Ambulance chasers will get a win when someone hasn't been shown how to do something safely. If they have been shown how to do it safely and chose to ignore it, then they wont get a win.

[quote] You couldn't reasonably, for example, sue the BBC for broadcasting footage of riots after you go out and start smashing up buildings, but yet there is no legal line saying that you can't try. [/quote]

You couldn't sue for that because rioting is illegal. There is no need for a legal line saying that you can't try because ignorance of the law is no defence.

[quote] It just ends up being up to the judge and there's always one who will allow any frivolous crap that comes their way, which leads to a gradual deterioration of the entire legal system until we end up like the USA [/quote]

So therefore, giving them less to find people guilty on can only be a good thing.

[quote] a) there will always be idiots [/quote]

Yes

[quote] b ) idiots learn best from mistakes with consequences, [/quote]

No, whilst you can and should learn from mistakes, it's better to prevent mistakes from happening in the first place by teaching people a few simple rules, and adhere to the rules yourself while you demonstrate them. It onlt takes a few minutes to explain them. Plus, it's not only idiots who make mistakes.

[quote] c) nobody should cater to the aforementioned idiots but instead to the majority. If the majority is the idiots then it's already too late and we might as well outlaw power tools now. [/quote]

You should cater to your target audience. If those people are new to mod box making, using power tools, whatever, then you should arm them with the knowledge to be able to perform it safely.

[quote] The dremil comes with no safety guard out of the box, Mine was mounted in the correct dremil work stand.
The work stand was built for using the dremil on a work bench, again the work stand has no safety guard.[/quote]

Yes, but to promote safe working, the battery connectors you were shaping sould have been held with pliers or a hand vice.

[quote] The drill through the thumb was caused by drilling a box in a vice. secured so that it would not move.
The drill bit hit the metal snapped and went through my thumb. [/quote]

Freak accidents can and will happen, but can be minimised by keeping fingers well away from cutting edges, behind drill bits etc.

I now had hold them, my choice. (won't let me quote this for some reason)

I won't argue with you about that, if you choose to do it that way, thats fine, you are more experienced than most, know the risks, But when you are showing others how to do it, you should show them the safest way possible.

I know i'm sounding like a right health and safety git, walking round with my clipboard. I'm not like that really, and i agree with a lot that has been said in this thread. Yes, the blame culture is awful and there will always be idiots who will do it wrong, whatever you tell them.

Yes a lot of it comes down to common sense, and people possess different levels of it. But also isn't it common sense to try and protect yourself from blame by showing the safe way?

Matt

P.s. i did like your show, it was very interesting and i wish you all the best with it.

Edited by DarthVaper, 04 February 2012 - 12:25 AM.

[capnhack]

Well, where do you draw the line? Should Garry spend half an hour of every show going over every single safety precaution and adding to the list with every show because someone came up with a new way to maim themselves? I think the most that's needed to solve the problem is a note or snippet of video saying use safety gear and be careful if you aren't experienced. Getting into specifics will only mangle the format (unless it's an episode devoted to safety, which could also work), so there does need to be some compromise on both fronts.

If you get too preachy with the safety stuff and try to tell people everything they shouldn't do then they will just ignore it, in much the same way as nobody reads EULAs or manuals for anything (until something bad happens to them personally). If it was a case of purely protecting yourself legally then there's a place for this kind of rhetoric, but it isn't in each episode; it can go in some kind of disclaimer linked to in the description. If it's instead about protecting the viewer then there should be emphasis on the viewer using their own common sense rather than trying to bubble wrap every situation in every conceivable way. For example, you could tell someone how not to chop their arm off with a circular saw 100 different ways, but someone will still come along and find way 101 if they are following those examples rather than using their brain. Common sense is adaptive, whereas health and safety advice is not.

Looking forward to the show tomorrow and seeing how this issue is tackled. Hopefully I can catch it live.

[Harlequin69]

To be honest I think the health and safety thread on VTTV forums adequately covers this. All Garry needs to do is spend 5-10 secs saying do as I say not as I do and refer people to the thread with an on-screen banner, perhaps using a bit.ly or similar link for brevity. Simple, covers all the bases and lets Garry chop his fingers off in safe in the knowledge he has done his bit

[DarthVaper]

I'm not saying he should spend a lot of time explaining every aspect of safety, like you say, a note or snippet of video saying check the safety advice on the forum would do.

But i also think Garry (and anyone else doing this kind of thing) should actually use safe practices on the shows. Not drilling objects while held in the hand, using a hand vice while grinding small objects, that kind of thing. Which, quite frankly is common sense, but Garry chooses not to use it.

Matt

Edited by DarthVaper, 04 February 2012 - 12:51 AM.

[Harlequin69]

DarthVaper, on 04 February 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

I'm not saying he should spend a lot of time explaining ever aspect of safety, like you say, a note or snippet of video saying check the safety advice on the forum would do.

But i also think Garry (and anyone else doing this kind of thing) should actually use safe practices on the shows. Not drilling objects while held in the hand, using a hand vice while grinding small objects, that kind of thing. Which, quite frankly is common sense, but Garry chooses not to use it.

Matt

Yup personal choice, watching some things makes me cringe for example Cat with power tools I much prefer watching someone working safely and I think it would set a good model for aspiring modders but as long as he makes the advice available and makes a point of mentioning it then it's up to him if he wants to do follow it

[capnhack]

If only heavy duty triple jointed counterbalanced pneumatic arms were easy to make at home.. Without them it's a huge pain to get at a safely clamped object from a safe angle whilst allowing a camera to see what's going on. There's a mod challenge for you Garry; build a second pair of arms for yourself.