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It looks like the consultation decision has been made

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#161
Kate

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“It may well be that ministers make up their minds without having a sound evidence base, and civil servants are then asked to assess the impact of measures retrospectively.”Among the problems Mr Gibbons identified were a lack of explanation for regulation, a failure to examine other possible options and an inadequate examination of the costs and benefits of legislating.

One example was a ban on selling cigarettes from vending machines, which was designed to prevent under-18s from buying cigarettes. The committee said the Department of Health had not analysed whether the ban would actually reduce smoking.

That legislation was passed in spite of the committee’s views, which Mr Gibbons’ said was a “concern”. Business groups warned it cast a question mark over how seriously ministers had taken deregulation.

http://www.ft.com/cm...144feabdc0.html





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#162
xjohnukold

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View PostKate, on 05 August 2010 - 11:53 PM, said:


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FT.com articles are only available to registered users and subscribers.



Maybe you could post an abstract if you have access to this article?





#163
Kate

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Sorry John, I didn't realise the page was restricted.


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Ill-thought-out regulation under fire

By Kiran Stacey

Published: August 6 2010 00:03 | Last updated: August 6 2010 00:03

Ministers are passing badly thought out regulation that has not been properly analysed, according to a report by an independent panel of experts.

In a scathing report, the regulatory policy committee, which advises the business department on new regulations, identified problems in 22 out of the 107 cases it reviewed between December 2009 and May 2010. All the cases looked at arose during the previous government, which created the RPC last October.

The report said: “There are a number of impact assessments that lack significant analytical rigour, are poorly presented or appear to be produced as an afterthought, seemingly as a means of ‘ticking the right boxes’ to obtain the necessary approval for a proposed course of action.”

In an interview with the Financial Times, Michael Gibbons, who chairs the RPC, said: “It may well be that ministers make up their minds without having a sound evidence base, and civil servants are then asked to assess the impact of measures retrospectively.”

Among the problems Mr Gibbons identified were a lack of explanation for regulation, a failure to examine other possible options and an inadequate examination of the costs and benefits of legislating.

One example was a ban on selling cigarettes from vending machines, which was designed to prevent under-18s from buying cigarettes. The committee said the Department of Health had not analysed whether the ban would actually reduce smoking.

That legislation was passed in spite of the committee’s views, which Mr Gibbons’ said was a “concern”. Business groups warned it cast a question mark over how seriously ministers had taken deregulation.

Steve Pointer, of the EEF, the manufacturers’ association, said: “These findings are quite shocking really in a lot of ways. The most damning thing is that the government went ahead in some cases despite the critical opinions. That is really poor and has got to be seen off.”

Vince Cable, the business secretary, has given Mr Gibbons’ committee a wider remit and has asked it to scrutinise new legislation before it is formally published. It will advise Mr Cable’s “star chamber” of ministers, which has the power to block proposed regulations if it considers them too costly or badly designed.

However, some business groups criticised the plans. The Institute of Directors was “sceptical” of the RPC’s membership, which includes a trade unionist and a consumer champion. “We question whether a body which has significant trade union and consumer interests in its make-up will really challenge government figures which consistently understate the cost to business of proposed regulations,” it said.

Mr Gibbons defended the group’s membership, saying the make-up showed true independence from government and from business.

Mr Cable also announced on Thursday the implementation of the new “one-in, one-out” system of monitoring the flow of new red tape from September 1. Mr Gibbons welcomed the prompt implementation of the rule, which he said was a “genuinely innovative attempt to deal with the otherwise stubborn weight of regulation on the statute books”.

Scrutiny chief seen as robust voice of reason

Michael Gibbons has now spent almost a decade at the heart of government working with ministers on how to improve regulation.

After leaving Powergen, the energy company, in 2002, he went to work for the government’s Better Regulation Task Force.

He became interested in how regulations were developed after seeing what he believed was a heavy-handed government approach to setting gas prices after the energy industry was denationalised.

Mr Gibbons served on the various successor bodies to that task force, in 2007 producing a report for Alistair Darling, then trade secretary, on employment dispute regulations.

In late 2009, he was asked by Lord Mandelson, then business secretary, to chair the regulatory policy committee and keep an eye on how well departments were assessing the impact of their own regulations.

He has earned the respect of ministers and admiration of business groups, who say he has been a robust voice of reason within Whitehall.

When Vince Cable, the business secretary, was looking for a body to scrutinise regulations before publication, his reputation and his experience treading carefully around Whitehall sensitivities made him the ideal candidate.



Jackie, I don't know if there's a copyright problem with me posting the whole article. Would you trim it or edit or whatever if you think it's needed, plz. ktxbai

Edited by Kate, 06 August 2010 - 12:15 AM.



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#164
xjohnukold

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The report said: “There are a number of impact assessments that lack significant analytical rigour, are poorly presented or appear to be produced as an afterthought, seemingly as a means of ‘ticking the right boxes’ to obtain the necessary approval for a proposed course of action.”

In an interview with the Financial Times, Michael Gibbons, who chairs the RPC, said: “It may well be that ministers make up their minds without having a sound evidence base, and civil servants are then asked to assess the impact of measures retrospectively.”

Among the problems Mr Gibbons identified were a lack of explanation for regulation, a failure to examine other possible options and an inadequate examination of the costs and benefits of legislating.



OMG... music to my ears...


#165
pillbox38

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I had been talking with this journalist from the Wall Street Journal while in the USA..He is writing a story on Electronic Cigarettes and the Growth of the Industry, he was a good guy, we conversed for an hour. I had sort of prompted him re the MHRA and FDA involvement and sent some docs we had received from Philip Morris Lawyers re copyright.

Any way i took this opportunity to see if he might at least mention the MLX consultation..If he does i expect the Uk press might write something we shall see.

Worth a shot..

See email below. His name removed , but anyone has anything juicy send it to me i will forwards it..


RE: Re Electronic Cigarette storyFriday, 6 August, 2010 1:11
From: @wsj.com>View contact detailsTo: "Jason Cropper" <pillbox3840@yahoo.com>

Hi Jason. Thanks much for this. I will check out these documents. I just returned from vacation in California and will resume working on the story tomorrow. Cheers,

@@@@@@
The Wall Street Journal
Chicago bureau
(o) 312.750.4115
© 312.402.1988
________________________________________
From: Jason Cropper [pillbox3840@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 3:04 PM
To:
Subject: Re Electronic Cigarette story

Hi David

It was good talking with you a few weeks ago, if you are still writing the story i have something that might be of interest to you re the MHRA in the UK and another powerful organisation Trading Standards.

A Leaked internal letter by a west sussex trading standards officer that has now been detracted seems to point to a shambolic Consultation process on the MHRAS proposed ban on all Nicotine Containing products.

http://smokles.wordp...les-in-britain/

The trading standards officer has now withdrawn this document, but it highlights the point of how flawed and seemingly biased the health regulators in the UK and by default the USA are re E.Cigs.

See this critical apraisal by another government body of the MHRAS consultation Document

http://regulatorypol...publication.pdf

David also a link to a press release by myself a few months ago, never picked up in the UK or USA but i believe if you could highlight would be extremely powerful in getting straight answers not just a smokescreen.

http://tobacco.einne...21st-june-2010-



Your help would be much appreciated.

Jason Cropper
Managing Director

Totally Wicked E-Liquid
http://www.totallywi...-eliquid.co.uk/
http://www.totallywicked-eliquid.com/

The Electronic Cigarette Company
http://www.theelectr...igarette.co.uk/

#166
jigtg

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View PostJackie, on 04 August 2010 - 05:30 PM, said:

Absolutely. Still, it's quite nice watching idiots back-pedalling. :D
I beg to disagree, John is a genius. He figured out how to sell a soul.

#167
Kate

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I might be reading something into this that isn't intended but thought it would be worth mentioning here anyway.

This is from a Dept Health Best Practice Guidance thing for cessation workers page 62:

Quote

DH is working with local authorities to ensure that correct
and informative labelling is in place, as is necessary under general product safety laws.
Any products that do not have the appropriate safety warnings – such as being marked
as ‘highly toxic’ – the application of tactile warnings, child-resistant fastenings and the
right packaging should not therefore be on sale in the UK.
http://www.dh.gov.uk...t/dh_109889.pdf

This guidance was written by the tobacco control big shits who are likely to be the main advisers on government policy for ecigs I think.

The fact that they don't say they're trying to stop sales completely looks kind of promising to me but I'm reluctant to get too overjoyed ...


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#168
moog

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I read it the same way Kate...

#169
Ian

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The publication date of that document is Nov last year. I wouldn't therefore interpret it as a change in direction with regard to the ongoing MHRA consultation if that's how you're reading it Kate.

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#170
Kate

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Yeah, the date is important.

It was either Sept or Nov last year that LACORS, the TSI and CIEH sent their letter to the DH about regulating ecigs.

Linda Bauld is one of the writers of that document, she seems to get everywhere with tobacco control in the UK. I wonder if it would be worth folks writing to her to tell her she'll be sending them back to smokes if she allows the recreational market to be closed. I've already told her what I think - L.Bauld@bath.ac.uk

Plus, the hypocrites say they support harm reduction. That winds me up something rotten.


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#171
Tyke

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Well their harm reduction stategy is sound, no smokers = no harm.

Utterly unrealistic of course.

http://www.bath.ac.u...ple/lbauld.html That's Linda Bauld incidentally, quite clearly from her bio a member of the anti smoking establishment.

Edited by Tyke, 09 August 2010 - 10:53 PM.


#172
Kate

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Lol, I think you've a point there, they certainly don't mind wiping out all the alternatives to deadly and ineffective products.

Ms Bauld is one of the stars of this little effort, fourth down:

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UK Centre for Tobacco Control Studies, Dept Health and Cancer Research UK. CRUK funds ASH who asked for the recreational market to be closed. CRUK works closely with pharm companies developing products for them. There's some interesting CRUK discussion here (if you don't have a life), it's the comments that are best - http://scienceblog.c...unded-research/


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#173
Tyke

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Qualifications: PhD in Social Policy, University of Edinburgh, 1997; BA (Hons) in Politics, University of Toronto, 1993

Current Professional Activities:

Scientific Adviser to the Department of Health on Tobacco Control

Fellow of the Higher Education Academy

Vice-chair of Cancer Research UK’s Tobacco Advisory Group

Member of the ASH (Action on Smoking and Health) Advisory Council

Member of the Smokefree South West Programme Board

Member of the International Network of Women Against Tobacco (INWAT)


OVERALL RESEARCH INTERESTSPublic health policy, primarily tobacco control and smoking cessation and drug and alcohol policy.
Linda is a member of the University of Bath Tobacco Control Research Group- see www.bath.ac.uk/health/tobacco/index.html
The Bath Tobacco Control Research Group is part of the UK Centre for Tobacco Control Studies - see www.ukctcs.org

CURRENT GRANTS(PI in bold):
Bauld, L, Hay, G and Templeton, L. Alcohol misuse and benefit uptake Funder: Department of Work and Pensions
Duration: June 2009-March 2010

Bauld, L and Coleman, T. The Effectiveness of smoking cessation interventions during pregnancy Funder: National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence
Duration: June -October 2009

Bauld, L, Templeton, L and Brandling, J. School-based interventions to prevent the uptake of smoking in children and young people: a systematic review
Funder: National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence
Duration: November 2008-April 2009


Munafo, M, Aveyard, P and Bauld, L. Computer and other electronic aids for smoking cessation: a systematic review
Funder: National Institute for Health Research Health Technology Assessment Programme (NIHR HTA)
Duration: April 2009-March 2010

Machenbach, J, Kunst, A, Judge, K, Bauld, L and colleagues. The potential for reduction of health inequalities in Europe.
Funder: European Commission
Duration: January 2009-December 2011

Bauld, L and Gilmore, A. Smokefree South West: Research and evaluation support
Funder: NHS Southwest
Duration: April 2008-March 2010

Bauld, L and Hay, G. A study to examine the nature and extent of benefit uptake by problematic drug users
Funder: Department of Work and Pensions
Duration: October 2008-April 2009

Bauld, L, Ferguson, J, McEwen, A and Sumnall, H. Evaluation of a drop in rolling group model for smoking cessation
Funder: Roy Castle Lung Cancer Foundation
Duration: December 2008-August 2010

Coleman, T, Bauld, L, Lewis S and McEwen, A. PORTSSS Trial (Evaluation and randomised controlled trial of implementing pro-active telephone counselling for smokers)
Funder: Department of Health
Duration: June 2008-December 2009

Britton, J, McNeill, A, Bauld L, Amos, A, Aveyard, P, Coleman, T, Hajek, P, Hastings, G, Lewis, S and West, R. UK Centre for Tobacco Control Studies
Funder: UK Clinical Research Collaboration
Duration: June 2008-May 2012

Bauld, L, Britton, J, McNeill, A and Coleman, T, UK Centre for Tobacco Control Studies (Communications Manager post)
Funder: Cancer Research UK
Duration: October 2008-September 2013

Gilmore, A, Bauld, L, Judge, K, Taylor G and Jacobsen, BJ. Evaluation of smoke-free England: secondary analysis
Funder: Department of Health
Duration: October 2008-March 2011

Pretty obvious from that lot where Professor Bauld's interests lie.

#174
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View PostTyke, on 09 August 2010 - 11:08 PM, said:



Pretty obvious from that lot where Professor Bauld's interests lie.

Most of the other CTCS staffers in Kate's post also have very clear conflicts of interest by the look of it. At best they will be naturally biased in favour of products they have had a hand in developing. At worst, well use your imagination.......

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#175
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‘highly toxic’...the application of tactile warnings, child-resistant fastenings

Hmm. I have a bottle of Surgical Spirit with no raised markings and some oven cleaner with a simple flip cap and Approved by the Vegetarian Society on the label.
Another Boltonian vaper

Possible deaths due to smoking: 1010
Probable deaths due to e-smoking: 0


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#176
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Was lying in bed late last night listening to talksport radio. The subject was smoking. His figure of smokers is the uk is 25%. Don’t know as he never said if it includes e-puffers but if that is the correct figures that’s a lot of votes so I think the gov might think twice about doing anything and do what they do best. Talk a good game but do nothing.


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#177
booker

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1st of September today - YAY.

Do we have any news? :)
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#178
xjohnukold

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View Postbooker, on 01 September 2010 - 10:48 AM, said:

1st of September today - YAY.

Do we have any news? :)


'Our fate' will surely be made public soon? I believe that a decision surely HAS already been made... it's how it is released, and then 'what next' as far as enforcement vigour IF a ban is announced.... for us an interesting month.




#179
Shifty

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I'll take at a guess......all e-cig related devices will need a BSI Kitemark(or banned) and all juices will need an M.A( or banned) :jimlad:
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Give a man a modded carto, he vapes for a day. Teach a man to mod a carto, he vapes forever.

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#180
googled

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The crickets are driving me mad..not to mention the tumble-weed.
It's been widely acknowledged that smoking is a leading cause of statistics.