119 replies to this topic

[prof beard]

I would like to know for certain what the temperatures generated by the atty's really are - you got the 300 Celsius off Abe's site - where did Abe get the figure from? I'm sure Abe quotes the figures in good faith (he is a straight up guy), but it might be worth checking these. Also the point someone made about vaporisation vs decomposition temperatures on ECF was interesting.


I remember a lot of threads about 6v vaping where this acrolein issue was discussed - 6v on a regular atty must produce similar temperatures to an LR atty at 3.7v - and I recall concerns about decomposition were felt to be unjustified (but remained a bit unconvinced)

I like a drink, and have been using LR901 recently, but have not noticed any of these symptoms myself - however acrolein is toxic and I would like to know more.

[Maz]

Clair has kinda said she has had something similar, where as I obviously don't wish this on anyone I on the other hand wish someone else with a similar experience would show up

I have gone over my reasoning for the acrolein conclusion and to me it's reasonably sound but I am certainly open to other possibilities. I was thinking allergy a while back but surely that wouldn't be temperature dependent? Same juice should produce the same effect whatever the atty temperature. I said towards the end of the original post that it may be something to do with my own physiology, being ultra sensitive to trace amounts of acrolein is a real possibility I suppose.

One thing that has just jumped to mind is related to this

westcoast2, on 04 September 2010 - 10:44 PM, said:

Simple Test results

The author stated that he had recorded a dry atty temp at 365C, way over the decomposition temperature. When wet the coil didn't reach those temperatures so we have a black and white situation here, what about the grey area? If a dry atty can reach 365C and acrolein is produced at around 280C then to my mind there is obviously a point at which the cooler, wet atty starts to dry out and the coil temperature begins to rise, this has to be the case, we are not flicking a switch here. There is a window here of around 85 degrees at which acrolein could possibly be produced, that is a fairly large window.

I must admit I am terrible for vaping carts dry, until the point I get the "burnt atty taste" but what actually is this "burnt atty taste" and where is it coming from? The atomiser is a metal wire coiled around some fibres sat in a ceramic pot. The metal and ceramic cannot burn and the fibres contrary to many posts on the internet also cannot burn, I am certain of this because I have removed the wicking fibres from a 510 atty and held them in the hottest portion of a lighter flame. What happens is the atty gunk burns off and then the fibres begin to glow, remove them from the flame and they are perfectly intact. I very much doubt that this 'taste' is coming from the atomiser components, I suspect that it is coming from the last remnants of the juice being burned off at a very high temperature indeed.

If you take a properly dry LR atomiser and fire it up you get no vapour, no smoke and no "burnt atty taste" if you draw on it. Do we still think these harsh, piercing, acrid, throat-shredding fumes are generated by the atomiser itself? Or is it more likely that the fumes that are so uncannily like the description of acrolein is actually what? donuts?

[prof beard]

Maz - reading that and some other tests people have done on atomiser temperature actually makes me skeptical about your theory - also the temperature at which the e-liquid will vapourise drops dramatically according to the percentage of VG, my reading of what I've seen leads me to believe that unless you are vaping bone dry atties for long bursts you are actually unlikely to be decomposing the VG.

I vape fairly "wet" and don't get burnt tastes you as describe them by the way - are you dd'ing or using carts, I would normally put any burnt taste down to the cart filler.


Not claiming I know or I'm right - merely that I am skeptical

Edited to add -

This seems to show up the wet/dry issue I suspect - no LR but does use high voltage which will be similar:

http://www.e-cigaret...erent-mods.html

Edited by prof beard, 05 September 2010 - 11:08 AM.

[Maz]

prof beard, on 05 September 2010 - 11:00 AM, said:

Not claiming I know or I'm right - merely that I am skeptical

No Prof you're fine, scepticism is good. The fact is I want to get to the bottom of this regardless of the outcome and if I'm wrong then that's fine too. I am in a weird situation here in that my body is telling me something that many others are telling me is impossible, it's bloody infuriating!

Why am I getting this response? Why is it only happening when I vape HV or LR?

Anyone in Swansea up for a couple of pints? I can show you the flush effect in full swing one day and then we can get totally bladdered on another day and I'll have a great time with no flushing whatsoever. Yes I do have that much control over it, I can guarantee it will happen if I spend the day vaping HV/LR and I can guarantee it won't if I use the same juice but don't touch HV/LR for a couple of days prior.

My days of using standard attys are numbered now anyway, I've had enough of them. This episode is simply the final nail in the coffin, I am going to wait until a UK supplier gets some of these E2 cartos I've been reading raves about so I can try them for myself, if they stand up to the reviews I'm going to order a job lot direct from China and kiss goodbye to atties for good!

[prof beard]

Maz - what brands and types of juice do you use? - I use PG-only or PG with some (minority eg 20% or less) VG - I don't like VG or heavy VG-mix juices... Maybe me tastebuds ARE telling me something...

[Maz]

I use LF G&S PG 24mg
Enjuice flue cured 24mg (I'm pretty sure this is either all VG or a VG heavy PG&VG mix)
Menthol that is made with LF 52mg PG unflavoured, menthol crystals, Glycerine (Care+ brand listed on label as "100% glycerol)) & water.

That's pretty much it, I am not really one for swapping flavours/suppliers...

[prof beard]

And have you get this effect regardless of which juice you have been vaping?

The ENJuice comes as Cristal, Premium and Satin Smooth (PR, PG/VG, and VG) by the way

[prof beard]

I've had an idea!!!!

When I first tried LR atties I posted that I'd noticed that I was getting much more nicotine for the same amount of liquid vaped than with regular atties (and was actually vaping less as I result - which I didn't like).


Could it be that after a day on HV/LR you have upped your nicotine levels to the point where you are getting a mild overdose and the alcohol then emphasises the symptoms?

Nic OD symptoms include:

* Extreme anxiety
* Cold sweats
* Dizziness
* Headache
* Insomnia
* Tingling feelings
* Confusion
* Panic attacks
* Depression
* Heart palpitations
* High pulse rates
* Increased blood pressure
* Fatigue and weakness
* Reduced appetite
* Diarrhea
* Stomach pains
* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Chest pain
* Hearing or vision problems
* Seizures

[Maz]

prof beard, on 05 September 2010 - 12:01 PM, said:

And have you get this effect regardless of which juice you have been vaping?

The ENJuice comes as Cristal, Premium and Satin Smooth (PR, PG/VG, and VG) by the way

I've been mainly swapping between the flue cured and G&S for a while now, haven't touched my menthol in a while, I get into fads with it and I'm not currently favouring it.. I don't drink on a daily basis so it's hard to differentiate between the juices exactly, but I have had the effect off definitely the flue cured and the menthol, the G&S I can't really be 100% certain to be honest. I could check it but the flush response is very unpleasant so now I know how to avoid it with 100% certainty I am somewhat hesitant to put myself in the position of having it again!

The Classic Flue Cured is in the "value vape" range, there is no option to change the medium on this one, it drips like a VG liquid though, it's very thick, bellows vapour out that tastes kinda smooth, thick and 'fluffy' lol..

[Dave]

Great Post Maz

The topic has been aired a few times over the years but the warning bells always seem to fall on deaf ears.

When I first heard of the 'issue' after a bit of research I decided to discontinue making the variable voltage mod (up to 8v 'ish .. or the full voltage of 2 batteries) I was selling at the time as IMHO it could end in tears.

[Maz]

I don't think it's nic overdose prof, I remember those quite well.

My symptoms when it hits with alcohol are

Raised body temperature
Seriously flushed face with a hot, prickly sensation
Feels like elevated blood pressure
Shortness of breath
General unpleasant feeling, not like you would expect from a moderate dose of alcohol

[Maz]

Dave, on 05 September 2010 - 12:14 PM, said:

Great Post Maz

The topic has been aired a few times over the years but the warning bells always seem to fall on deaf ears.

When I first heard of the 'issue' after a bit of research I decided to discontinue making the variable voltage mod (up to 8v 'ish .. or the full voltage of 2 batteries) I was selling at the time as IMHO it could end in tears.

Thanks Dave, I must admit I am experiencing a touch of resistance to the idea an atty could produce a spot of acrolein! lol...

[xjohnukold]

Hmmmm... I have been airing the idea that there may be 'an issue' with the chemicular breakdown of our base juices at (too) high vaping temps for a while... nothing here has changed my thinking tbh. But who pays for research? Think I'm sticking with regular voltages with me attys & cartos for a while yet... and as a preference I also prefer my juices PG with maybe up to 20% VG.

[moog]

Thanks for the very interesting read Maz....I've always been worried with the HV/LR vaping and haven't tried it yet even though I bought a LR atomiser. I'm glad you found a way of stopping your bad symptoms, you can only tell people your experiences and its up to them how they interpret them....

[Crossbow]

Way back i did a little research into this, the coil is likely capable of getting hot enough (judging by the cheery orange glow a dry one generates), but the presence of water in a VG mix pretty much guarantees that the temperature can't get high enough to form Acrolein.

The problem is that that doesn't take into account what happens when you get to the bottom of the cart - you drive off things starting with the lowest BP, so by the time a cart (or atomiser) is drying out, you can push the temp up high enough to generate acrolein.

As far as I can see, a wet atty shouldn't be able to generate acrolein (short of using neat VG), but drying out (or wicking problems for that matter) will allow it to happen, and it's much easier to do with more power pushed in to start with.

So you may find it helps if you make extra effort to keep the wick wet (for example by topping off before you vape) rather than relying on the cart.
Or biochemistry being so variable between individuals, it may not

[Jackie]

moog, on 05 September 2010 - 03:20 PM, said:

I'm glad you found a way of stopping your bad symptoms, you can only tell people your experiences and its up to them how they interpret them....

My thoughts exactly.

Nobody should be afraid to share their experiences. It's not a fully conclusive scientific test, but you didn't claim it to be either.

Thanks for the post!

[Maz]

Maz, on 05 September 2010 - 10:34 AM, said:

Clair has kinda said she has had something similar, where as I obviously don't wish this on anyone I on the other hand wish someone else with a similar experience would show up

I have gone over my reasoning for the acrolein conclusion and to me it's reasonably sound but I am certainly open to other possibilities. I was thinking allergy a while back but surely that wouldn't be temperature dependent? Same juice should produce the same effect whatever the atty temperature. I said towards the end of the original post that it may be something to do with my own physiology, being ultra sensitive to trace amounts of acrolein is a real possibility I suppose.

One thing that has just jumped to mind is related to this

westcoast2, on 04 September 2010 - 10:44 PM, said:

Simple Test results

The author stated that he had recorded a dry atty temp at 365C, way over the decomposition temperature. When wet the coil didn't reach those temperatures so we have a black and white situation here, what about the grey area? If a dry atty can reach 365C and acrolein is produced at around 280C then to my mind there is obviously a point at which the cooler, wet atty starts to dry out and the coil temperature begins to rise, this has to be the case, we are not flicking a switch here. There is a window here of around 85 degrees at which acrolein could possibly be produced, that is a fairly large window.

I must admit I am terrible for vaping carts dry, until the point I get the "burnt atty taste" but what actually is this "burnt atty taste" and where is it coming from? The atomiser is a metal wire coiled around some fibres sat in a ceramic pot. The metal and ceramic cannot burn and the fibres contrary to many posts on the internet also cannot burn, I am certain of this because I have removed the wicking fibres from a 510 atty and held them in the hottest portion of a lighter flame. What happens is the atty gunk burns off and then the fibres begin to glow, remove them from the flame and they are perfectly intact. I very much doubt that this 'taste' is coming from the atomiser components, I suspect that it is coming from the last remnants of the juice being burned off at a very high temperature indeed.

If you take a properly dry LR atomiser and fire it up you get no vapour, no smoke and no "burnt atty taste" if you draw on it. Do we still think these harsh, piercing, acrid, throat-shredding fumes are generated by the atomiser itself? Or is it more likely that the fumes that are so uncannily like the description of acrolein is actually what? donuts?

prof beard, on 05 September 2010 - 11:00 AM, said:

I would normally put any burnt taste down to the cart filler.

I just tested this, I blew out a LR901, got rid of all the dark brown gunk (that to me suggests carbon and high temperatures) dry fired it and then put a drip tip in it. I kept drawing on the atty and blowing the vapour out until there was no visible vapour left. I stuffed a fresh piece of blue foam down into the atty and replaced the drip tip. I have now a completely dry atty with dry cart filler stuffed right against the bridge.

When I vaped on it I got precisely nothing, no visible vapour, no flavour, no smell and no harsh acrid 'smoke' when I inhaled from the atty.

Given the outcome of this experiment and the description we've all read about the unpleasantness of acrolein vapour/fumes and the description of it I think I am correct in the post I quoted above.
I believe the temperature of a dry coil as measured by StratOvation on ECF to reach 365C and that whilst a wet atty was not measured anywhere near that temp, as the atty dries the temperature of the coil will increase up towards that 'dry' temperature, that much is pretty obvious. At the point of the cart and atty drying out that atty coil has to be hitting over 280C which is dangerzone as far as acrolein is concerned and when the last bits get burned off at this temperature we get what HV vapers know as that "burning atty taste" that I've always thought was from a dry atty. Funny how it NEVER happens on a standard atty at 3.7v no matter how dry it gets and I've just proved to myself this is not from a "burning atty" or cart filler on HV/LR.

I think that once the cart starts drying out or your direct drips are finishing and the vapour gets harsh, piercing and acrid not at all unlike choking on burning fat, you are at that point inhaling acrolein. The answer should be fairly simple, don't let your atty dry out, which is something I did regularly, actually 8-10 times each day I was inhaling that harsh crap, then I'd go and top up and instantly it was gone.

I'm now even more convinced my ALDH deficiency symptoms are from my ALDH having to deal with acrolein all day leaving me ill equipped to deal with acetaldehyde at night. It's actually just a result of my laziness really, I would inhale harsh vapour rather than top up until it was absolutely necessary - I won't be doing that again.

And I couldn't give a toss what they say on ECF!

Edited to add: Just noticed the post by Crossbow made as I was writing this, Thanks! It always helps to have someone agree on the possibility of something when you're beginning to think you are more or less on your own!

Edited by Maz, 05 September 2010 - 04:50 PM.

[Kate]

Apparently "Niacin (Nicotinic acid with the scientific sounding '-in' suffix) is formed by oxidation of nicotine. Either by enzymes in saliva or by, oh, let's see... heating it in the presence of air."
http://underdogsbite...ng-smokers.html


This study mentions ecigs and acrolein at the end I think - http://vapersnetwork...20ea%202010.pdf

Dr Laugesen's analysis of those findings: http://vapersnetwork...20Comments2.doc

[Maz]

Thanks Kate, big reading, not sure I'm up to it right now but will definitely read that, was it done on standard attys at 3.7v?

[prof beard]

Maz - whilst I remain skeptical - I agree very much with what Crossbow said and certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of decomposition under the right(wrong) circumstances.

I'm an old fashioned "use a cart and top up regularly" vaper, and don't really ever run "dry" as result, at the first sign of vapour dropping, I top up.

I do wonder if dripping increases the chance of running dry - especially with HV/LR. I'm willing to entertain the notion that running dry, coupled with HV or LR being used of VG or maily VG juice, may start nudging into decomposition territory.

Also your reaction to low instances of acrolein may be especially sensitive and you might have proved to be a "canary in the mine" that we should all take notice of...

Edited by prof beard, 05 September 2010 - 05:09 PM.