119 replies to this topic

[Kate]

Sorry Maz, I don't know any more about it.

Edited by Kate, 05 September 2010 - 05:45 PM.

[Maz]

prof beard, on 05 September 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

Also your reaction to low instances of acrolein may be especially sensitive and you might have proved to be a "canary in the mine" that we should all take notice of...

If it helps prof, then this "canary" has done it's job

[Crossbow]

It's also worth noting that a little acrolein goes a long way, the MSDS for acrolein gives a short term exposure limit of 0.2 PPM, and a prolonged exposure limit of 0.1 PPM. Exposure to 1PPM is considered toxic.
Everyone will to a certain extent have a different reaction - I can't dry vape the way Maz descibes, as it makes me gag

[Lisaf01]

Maz,
Not all atties sold as LR atties are the same resistances and so will not all produce the same temperatures. I have been saying for some time that I believe most LR atties on the market to be too low resistance, but no-one was really listening.

Do you happen to know the resistances of your atties that you believe are burning much hotter, and also the ones used in the temperature measurements?

Prolly moot anyway, since part of the issue with this temp thing seems to be conversion from between C and F.

Edited by Lisaf01, 05 September 2010 - 06:56 PM.

[smokindeuce]

I think your theory is potentially sound Maz but I'm definitely also trying to see if there are any other possible causes for this or at least be as analytical as I can.

As I said earlier, the closest thing that matches your symptoms is vasodilation - this is exactly the flush effect you describe.

After further reading into acrolein it has been proven to cause vasodilation in Rats and Guinea Pigs - this is just from scraping the surface so I expect there would be more cases of this if anyone delved further. Further reading.

So to cut a long story short, you state this happens when you drink, when either LR/HV vaping and also you mention taking niacin/vitamin B supplements. All of these cause vasodilation/flushing which is the reaction you are/were getting. Out of all of these factors, I share the same experience when taking niacin/vitamin B pills (and I mean a severe 30 minute hot red itchy flush) but have yet had a reaction from drinking alcohol and/or HV vaping both of which I do regularly.

Therefore I am inclined to believe it is a combo of all these things.... if you take niacin you will definitely get this reaction (with or without alcohol/HV vaping). And it's quite possible that you are over sensitive to LR vaping/alcohol. Do you ever get this reaction if you have only been exclusively vaping using LR atties?

I still don't understand how you manage to vape acrolein on a regular basis though - it is a horrible, acrid smell taste that would make you certainly stop and top up your dry atty without a moments hesitation. 1st rule to 6V/LR vaping (as I'm sure you know) is keep that atty topped with liquid at all times - this keeps the atty running temperature down and means acrolein conversion is less likely.

To anyone concerned or otherwise if you inhale some acrolein you would certainly know about it (and probably gag).... if your PV has ever accidentally gone off in your pocket without you realising you will know what acrolein smells like - it is that acrid horrid smell.

And a further note on acrolein - just to point out it is present in cigarette smoke and we used to regularly inhale it all the time as ex smokers (not that this is a good thing of course).

If you have any concerns about HV/LR vaping obviously the best option is to steer clear.... there is no doubt in my mind that it is probably more harmful than a standard setup albeit on a relative scale.

If you want to try HV/LR vaping just remember that juice is the key not only for the best performance but also to avoid acrolein conversion.

Just my tuppence....

Edited by smokindeuce, 05 September 2010 - 07:35 PM.

[smokindeuce]

And of course if you are in any doubt go and discuss with your GP - it could be a circulatory problem which is just triggered by one or all of these elements.... your GP would most probably be able to cast a far better judgment on the whole thing than anyone else here can.

By the way, forgot to say thanks Maz for posting your experience - we definitely need to try to get the the bottom of any possible ecig related health issues in such an infantile industry and it is very informative/useful for anyone else suffering from similar symptoms or otherwise.

Edited by smokindeuce, 05 September 2010 - 07:38 PM.

[smokindeuce]

Another point to bear in mind incase it hasn't been mentioned is that acrolein only converts from Glycerine at around 240-260 degrees Celcius.

So therefore if you choose to vape using LR/HV atties it would be prudent to make sure that the base of your liquid is only PG.... remember some PG liquids are cut with VG so it's worth checking the ingredients first with your supplier if you are in doubt.

PG is certainly not known to convert to acrolein as far as I know.

[Maz]

smokindeuce, on 05 September 2010 - 07:24 PM, said:

As I said earlier, the closest thing that matches your symptoms is vasodilation - this is exactly the flush effect you describe.

So to cut a long story short, you state this happens when you drink, when either LR/HV vaping and also you mention taking niacin/vitamin B supplements. All of these cause vasodilation/flushing which is the reaction you are/were getting. Out of all of these factors, I share the same experience when taking niacin/vitamin B pills (and I mean a severe 30 minute hot red itchy flush) but have yet had a reaction from drinking alcohol and/or HV vaping both of which I do regularly.

Therefore I am inclined to believe it is a combo of all these things.... if you take niacin you will definitely get this reaction (with or without alcohol/HV vaping). And it's quite possible that you are over sensitive to LR vaping/alcohol. Do you ever get this reaction if you have only been exclusively vaping using LR atties?

I keep saying only took the niacin AFTER I started having the problem, long after and not for long as it didn't help. I am not especially sensitive to alcohol at all, in fact I have a long and distinguished drinking career
I know what caused the symptoms without a shadow of a doubt, acetaldehyde. With all the acrolein my body had to deal with I was left with little to none ALDH by the time I had a drink and as such my body was incapable of neutralising the acetaldehyde (main ethanol metabolite) and turning it into acetic acid to be excreted, the symptoms of this are flushing, breathlessness and the other symptoms I had. Also explains how after I eventually sussed what was going on and went back to a standard atty at 3.7v all of the symptoms vanished completely and have not returned.

Disulfram or antabuse is a drug given to alcoholics in an attempt to stop them drinking, it is an ALDH inhibitor and would cause the same effect as I was inadvertently creating in myself. Apparently it is quite effective and after my little episode with acrolein I can fully understand why, it's not just the flushing, it's all the other unpleasant effects that go with it coupled with a total absence of the pleasurable effects of alcohol. Acetaldehyde does not feel good at all, it is not just vasodilation, there is that but also a feeling akin to how I'd imagine having an asthma attack in a overly hot sauna whilst trying to get rid of a low level but persistent headache would feel.. For hours..

I didn't have the full effects without alcohol because the symptoms are not those of acrolein, they are of acetaldehyde. Acrolein was the underlying cause but the effect itself was due to ALDH depletion because my body used it all trying to neutralise the acrolein, leaving none to neutralise the acetaldehyde from my alcohol consumption.

I'm done with HV/LR now, not going back. I was never trying to stop anyone else doing it, just wanted to share the 'experience' in case anyone else was experiencing similar. I am on 2.2ohm 510 cartos now and am eagerly awaiting the E2s I have been hearing all about. I am also binning my VG just in case!

[smokindeuce]

Well thanks for taking the time to post your experiences Maz and it would be interesting to see if in time anyone else has a response akin to this from HV vaping.

Apologies if I seemed to be insinuating anything by my responses... I wasn't, just trying to help and see this from all angles without writing off anything in the process.

[xjohnukold]

smokindeuce, on 05 September 2010 - 07:24 PM, said:

Just my tuppence....

Nice post, and worth thruppence...

[smokindeuce]

xjohnuk, on 05 September 2010 - 09:22 PM, said:

smokindeuce, on 05 September 2010 - 07:24 PM, said:

Just my tuppence....

Nice post, and worth thruppence...

You charmer!

[Maz]

smokindeuce, on 05 September 2010 - 09:16 PM, said:

Well thanks for taking the time to post your experiences Maz and it would be interesting to see if in time anyone else has a response akin to this from HV vaping.

Apologies if I seemed to be insinuating anything by my responses... I wasn't, just trying to help and see this from all angles without writing off anything in the process.

Not at all, apologies if I came across a bit prickly it wasn't my intention at all, I know you were trying to get all the info straight and that's understandable.. All in all this has been an easier ride than I was expecting, I wasn't really expecting anyone to accept this at all.

I am prepared to split responsibility with the attys/VG, on one hand I think I've proved that they are definitely capable of generating acrolein and as such deserve respect. On the other hand I am probably a perfect example of what not to do with HV/LR. Keep attys wet and draw at them fast and don't ignore harsh vapour, I did pretty much everything wrong and have had the downside of that for months.

In my defence though, there is very little info around on this subject and absolutely nothing to enable me to link the symptoms I was having to the vaping.

[smokindeuce]

Maz, on 05 September 2010 - 09:39 PM, said:

smokindeuce, on 05 September 2010 - 09:16 PM, said:

Well thanks for taking the time to post your experiences Maz and it would be interesting to see if in time anyone else has a response akin to this from HV vaping.

Apologies if I seemed to be insinuating anything by my responses... I wasn't, just trying to help and see this from all angles without writing off anything in the process.

Not at all, apologies if I came across a bit prickly it wasn't my intention at all, I know you were trying to get all the info straight and that's understandable.. All in all this has been an easier ride than I was expecting, I wasn't really expecting anyone to accept this at all.

I am prepared to split responsibility with the attys/VG, on one hand I think I've proved that they are definitely capable of generating acrolein and as such deserve respect. On the other hand I am probably a perfect example of what not to do with HV/LR. Keep attys wet and draw at them fast and don't ignore harsh vapour, I did pretty much everything wrong and have had the downside of that for months.

In my defence though, there is very little info around on this subject and absolutely nothing to enable me to link the symptoms I was having to the vaping.

No worries Maz - I think you are right about HV/LR vaping - it is a brave new world so to speak and definitely needs to be approached with respect which is also why these threads are of the utmost importance.

Another tip I can offer to anyone contemplating HV vaping which I quickly learned is never hold the switch beyond 2-4 secs.... its not necessary and any longer you really end up overcooking the juice. Also I tend to hold the switch down less when I perceive the atty is running low on liquid to be on the safe side.

Liquid constitution also greatly affects the results of HV vaping... for example if you have a relatively thick constitution to your liquid, this will fair much better overall and last longer than a very thin viscosity liquid.

Like most people who vape before and after us there is a lot of trial and error involved but certainly prudence and (as you have shown) an enquiring mind is key to it all.

Until there have been full clinical trials, we are all living in hope to some extent that vaping is relatively safe (although current/past research is overall optimistic) and we certainly don't want to be in the same situation we were with cigarettes by being complacent or worse by ignoring vital signs.

Best,

Tim

Edited by smokindeuce, 05 September 2010 - 10:18 PM.

[atina]

just found this thread by accident really, i am asthmatic which is 1 reason i stopped smoking and started vaping. now i got an irritated throat from dekang which i am not impressed by cos i loved it ! so now use vg only but i have for months now been breathless not my asthma its fine and doesnt show as my lungs on a c o p d check either ( stated lungs of 39 yr old yet i'm nearly 48), although due to being on steroid inhalers all my adult life its possible it has covered it up, i am actually off work on sick as i am a care assistant and in a very busy hectic flat and i just cant rush around, i'm fine if i go steady tho. i am now wondering could it be acrodein thats causing this ? i try to ensure my atty is wet although like everyone i have had some yukky dry times. i also either use 5v mmmm mostly if i am honest or i use a lr atty on my tornado. i love vaping and really dont want to end up smoking and have 4 more bottles of vg pi to use up ! now i am really not sure what to do my dekang is value vape which until i realised was giving me sore throat i was happy with, and a friend just says smoke fags huh he is really against ejuice altogether so i dont have any help and want to vape its so much more satisfying. think i will try pg and see but i love the vapour of vg grrrr yeah i am going on and soooo confused. for now i will order some pg and try to stick to it for a week and see if it helps. i just thought i would put it out there as it were and see if anyone has anymore thoughts to it ? and before anyone asks yes i did tell my doc i was vaping vg he said cant cause my breathing probs yet after reading all this thread i find it could so his not alot of use really lol.

[xjohnukold]

atina, on 14 September 2010 - 03:37 PM, said:

just found this thread by accident really, i am asthmatic which is 1 reason i stopped smoking and started vaping. now i got an irritated throat from dekang which i am not impressed by cos i loved it ! so now use vg only but i have for months now been breathless not my asthma its fine and doesnt show as my lungs on a c o p d check either ( stated lungs of 39 yr old yet i'm nearly 48), although due to being on steroid inhalers all my adult life its possible it has covered it up, i am actually off work on sick as i am a care assistant and in a very busy hectic flat and i just cant rush around, i'm fine if i go steady tho. i am now wondering could it be acrodein thats causing this ? i try to ensure my atty is wet although like everyone i have had some yukky dry times. i also either use 5v mmmm mostly if i am honest or i use a lr atty on my tornado. i love vaping and really dont want to end up smoking and have 4 more bottles of vg pi to use up ! now i am really not sure what to do my dekang is value vape which until i realised was giving me sore throat i was happy with, and a friend just says smoke fags huh he is really against ejuice altogether so i dont have any help and want to vape its so much more satisfying. think i will try pg and see but i love the vapour of vg grrrr yeah i am going on and soooo confused. for now i will order some pg and try to stick to it for a week and see if it helps. i just thought i would put it out there as it were and see if anyone has anymore thoughts to it ? and before anyone asks yes i did tell my doc i was vaping vg he said cant cause my breathing probs yet after reading all this thread i find it could so his not alot of use really lol.

Hate to spell out the obvious, but IF you THINK that using a product is having an adverse breathing impact... stop using it. Then assess if in stopping there is any improvement for YOU. No point asking for a doctor's opinion on your vaping materials, or even other members where it comes to health matters. No short cut here. Stop vaping, or make a change to your base liquids, or something... only YOU will be able to assess the difference. No one, honest, has an answer for you, only suggestions.

[atina]

thats exactly what i said i was gonna do but i thought it may be of help to someone else but obviously no ! i wont bother posting in future tho !!

[Kate]

I found it useful Atina, thanks for posting. Please would you report your experience here so it's easier to keep track - http://vapersnetwork.org/reports

Thanks.

[Jackie]

It's always useful to have these reports, don't feel discouraged from posting Atina.

I think there likely hasn't been many responses because nobody knows. I would say that your symptoms seem vastly different to those that Maz reports, so it may not be acrolein related. That said, I'm not a doctor or scientist so not really in a position to say. Not that much is known about acrolein in relation to vaping to my knowledge.

It may just be that you're sensitive to a particular juice or flavouring in a juice. All you can really do is begin a process of elimination by experimenting and taking note of when you experience those symptoms.

[xjohnukold]

atina, on 14 September 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

thats exactly what i said i was gonna do but i thought it may be of help to someone else but obviously no ! i wont bother posting in future tho !!

Sorry, Atina... I came across as rude. I myself have a breathing disorder, and if for a moment I thought something I was vaping was affecting my breathing even more I'd defo not discuss it with my doctor because he will tell me what I already know, (don't do it), and he knows nowt about vaping and juices anyways. BUT don't put off seeing your doctor if you know that your breathing is getting worse... because breathlessness is not to be taken lightly if it's out of the usual for you to feel like that. No one in a forum is qualified to advise on health related issues, especially if they delay a proper medical assessment.

And to be honest, and I was trying to be direct without being rude, you often have to find your own vaping solutions as many will be happy vaping this and that and no issues, and someone else might think it's this or that, but but they are not you!

You can do what Kate suggests and report it and one day there might be a few 'match ups', but for now, literally... your lungs are precious, so try summut else and see if this breathlessness gets better. Dare I say, the cause may not even be your vaping but an allergy to something else...

As a for example, I had a funny tickly cough for ages and ages, and kinda got used to it and thinking it was just me fags. At an assessment I mentioned it when asked about coughing, and my blood pressure medication was changed, and lo and behold it stopped overnight to this day. Now... I never would have related 'cause and effect'... Had I been vaping at the time I very definitely might have put it down to that...

Edited by xjohnuk, 15 September 2010 - 03:14 AM.

[xjohnukold]

Kate, on 14 September 2010 - 10:37 PM, said:

I found it useful Atina, thanks for posting. Please would you report your experience here so it's easier to keep track - http://vapersnetwork.org/reports

Thanks.

From said 'adverse events reporting' site, Kate:

Quote

My persistent cough cleared up but now, two years after quitting, I am experiencing an irritating and unproductive tickley cough, especially at night. I suspect this might be a sensitivity to cat hairs combined with lack of mucus due to not smoking.

'Cause... Effect....' read my last para above... imho such reports can be VERY potentially misleading, unnecessarily worrying, and worse may delay someone getting a proper medical opinion... where I come from it's simply called 'getting the wrong end of the stick', and whilst this adverse reporting site set up is well intentioned I'm sure, WILL it prove more good than harm? Despite the 'warning' to treat claims critically? E.g.

Quote

It could be unfortunate coincedence, but I became really quite ill after using the 510 Tornado for 2 weeks.

Edited by xjohnuk, 15 September 2010 - 04:13 AM.