77 replies to this topic

[Jackie]

We (meaning the admin/mod team) have noticed a growing trend of aggression across a number of threads recently and this is causing a fair amount of concern. With this in mind, I think a reminder is due that whilst our rules are relatively few, that does not mean that it's acceptable to post absolutely anything.

If I may draw your attention to the rules, in particular rule no. 3 which states -

Be civil - try to treat others the way you'd like to be treated yourself. Personal attacks of any nature will not be tolerated.

We have, I'll admit, sometimes been a little lax in enforcing that rule. It is extremely hard work trying to keep the atmosphere of this forum nicely balanced between allowing a fair amount of freedom and not allowing things to get out of control and no doubt we do sometimes get it wrong. However I / we feel the time has come to be a little tougher with that rule. I personally am getting pretty sick of coming on the forum only to be confronted with yet another spat to sort out. It's really not how I want to spend the majority of my time here and I'm not willing to do so anymore. I'm pretty sure many of the members don't particularly want to see it either. Having an extremely lenient attitude was fine while the member count was very low, but it seems that's no longer practical.

Before anyone jumps on me for saying this, let me be clear that I don't mean that you can't air complaints, and I'm not expecting everyone to have a 'happy bunny' attitude all of the time. But what isn't acceptable is things like threads titled 'Shit Vendors', posts having snide remarks at other members (whether they be vendors or not), or even dare I say it posts which are an all out attack on other members. None of these kinds of posts are acceptable in any way, shape or form (and nor is being drunk an excuse). We will start locking / editing / deleting posts and threads of this nature if we have to.

On the subject of vendors - if you have an issue that needs airing that's fair enough, there's no problem with that whatsoever. The problem usually lies in the way said issue / opinion is expressed. Lay out the facts in a calm and well thought out way (giving the benefit of the doubt in the first instance is also advisable), and usually you'll get a good response. A rant isn't likely to get the same response. Nor is making snarky comments directed at vendors in other folks threads. If you have a problem with service or goods that's fine - if you have a personal problem with the vendor him / her self, then please keep it to yourself, it serves no good purpose and will be interpreted as a personal attack and subject to the rule quoted above. If it's a case of you simply not liking the company, that's also fine, don't buy from them. We all have a monetary vote and that's far more effective than any snarky comment on a forum that most people won't read and likely won't care about.

May I also add, for the sake of clarity, that the rules apply equally to vendors.

Also, if you find something really offensive, then rather than replying in an angry manner and attempting to fight fire with fire, you have two options - 1) ignore the post, 2) report the post or PM a mod. Let us deal with it if necessary - when things are brought to our attention we do monitor them.

Really what it all boils down to is having some respect for each other and some common sense. Tackle the subject and not the person (and if the subject is a person then it's likely not a suitable subject). Think about your wording before posting. I don't think that's too much to ask. If you feel it is (and I realise not everyone will agree with everything I've written) then perhaps you would prefer to be at another forum that suits your preferences better. I don't like upsetting people but I'm afraid I / we are not willing to let the current atmosphere prevail. One of the things at the heart of this forum is a desire to help new users - I doubt we'll be seeing too many of those staying if at every turn they're faced with tension.

Some people are more sensitive than others, that doesn't make one type of person better than another, just different. It's our job to try and strike a happy medium and make this a good place to be for the majority, not the minority. Please keep in mind that it's not an easy job for us (that's an understatement), and your patience and understanding when we're dealing with these things would be very much appreciated. There was a thread posted earlier titled 'Is this forum going downhill'. I think it may be going a little too far to say that, the concerns are about a vocal minority after all, but certainly some things need to change. I hope this reminder will facilitate that.

[doodlebug]

A timely reminder, Jackie. Thank you.

I have been becoming increasingly concerned about the impression new users would get if they were to arrive at this wonderful forum when the type of thread you mention is airing its dirty laundry, as it were. It is hard to imagine a newbie realising what a helpful, friendly bunch we vapers are if that is what they see when they arrive.

I hope everyone will take heed of your wise words, Jackie, and I would like to thank you and your team, and hope that you can keep up the excellent standards you have set with your forum.

[Alice]

The biggest attraction for me, to this forum was a shared sense of humour.

There seems to be an air of "touchy" creeping in. As well as an air of grouchy.

Yes we are a consumer group, but also a support group, the aim should be to help each other and share information.

Knocking vendors because one order is flawed, or their stock is low seems somewhat churlish, these guys are NOT high street stores, they are people like you and I mostly, who decided to share their enthusiasm by setting up a business.

Let's take a deep breath, think about how we might be perceived and stop being so damn serious.

We are saving lives here!

[stonebear]

In a certain thread someone was talking about their concerns with a vendor and how they felt reticent to even mention it as it would be jumped on by numerous people all saying how good the vendor was, as I was/am having an issue too I posted about it and I do think I did it such a way as to abide by the following...

"On the subject of vendors - if you have an issue that needs airing that's fair enough, there's no problem with that whatsoever. The problem usually lies in the way said issue / opinion is expressed. Lay out the facts in a calm and well thought out way (giving the benefit of the doubt in the first instance is also advisable), and usually you'll get a good response."

I even mentioned the words "benefit of the doubt", lol. I do think a forum is where people should be able to state any problems they have, in a reasonable way. It can't all be perfect all the time.

One thing I was a bit shocked about when I joined recently was how some members talk to other members, if they were joking then it might be OK but I don't think they were. Some people's words were basically insulting to others. It seems to me that this is a bigger issue than the one persons post I have seen recently that was insulting to vendors.

It is like the forum equivalent of road-rage, people say stuff in type that they would never say to a persons face, maybe because they would get a punch.

[stonebear]

Concupiscible, on 04 December 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

Knocking vendors because one order is flawed, or their stock is low seems somewhat churlish, these guys are NOT high street stores, they are people like you and I mostly, who decided to share their enthusiasm by setting up a business.

I think the key-word there is "business".

Are people not allowed to ever mention any negative experience for fear of being perceived as churlish?

My own complaint was that my emails are ignored and the faulty batteries I returned have still not been dealt with, it has been two weeks now. It seems entirely reasonable to me, to be concerned about this.

Edited by stonebear, 05 December 2010 - 06:33 PM.

[Jackie]

stonebear, on 05 December 2010 - 06:28 PM, said:

Concupiscible, on 04 December 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

Knocking vendors because one order is flawed, or their stock is low seems somewhat churlish, these guys are NOT high street stores, they are people like you and I mostly, who decided to share their enthusiasm by setting up a business.

I think the key-word there is "business".

Are people not allowed to ever mention any negative experience for fear of being perceived as churlish?

Did you read my post in its entirety? I do believe I said -

Quote

Before anyone jumps on me for saying this, let me be clear that I don't mean that you can't air complaints, and I'm not expecting everyone to have a 'happy bunny' attitude all of the time.

All I'm basically asking for is for some level of politeness and respect. If you interpret that as meaning you're not allowed to say anything negative, then I suggest you've interpreted it wrongly.


And yes, vendors do run a business. But they're also people, and I believe equally entitled to the same level of politeness when being spoken to as any other member is. It's not like we're dealing with faceless corporations here, none of them are on the same level as Sky, or M&S etc. They're not beyond criticism, I only ask that when said criticism is being expressed that it's done so in a respectful manner and isn't a personal attack.

[prof beard]

I'd just like to say that I'm 100% behind Jackie on this (and I know Crossbow is too). Manners cost nothing - play the ball and not the player

Edited by prof beard, 05 December 2010 - 06:42 PM.

[stonebear]

Jackie, on 05 December 2010 - 06:38 PM, said:

stonebear, on 05 December 2010 - 06:28 PM, said:

Concupiscible, on 04 December 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

Knocking vendors because one order is flawed, or their stock is low seems somewhat churlish, these guys are NOT high street stores, they are people like you and I mostly, who decided to share their enthusiasm by setting up a business.

I think the key-word there is "business".

Are people not allowed to ever mention any negative experience for fear of being perceived as churlish?

Did you read my post in its entirety? I do believe I said -

Quote

Before anyone jumps on me for saying this, let me be clear that I don't mean that you can't air complaints, and I'm not expecting everyone to have a 'happy bunny' attitude all of the time.

All I'm basically asking for is for some level of politeness and respect. If you interpret that as meaning you're not allowed to say anything negative, then I suggest you've interpreted it wrongly.

And yes, vendors do run a business. But they're also people, and I believe equally entitled to the same level of politeness when being spoken to as any other member is. It's not like we're dealing with faceless corporations here, none of them are on the same level as Sky, or M&S etc. They're not beyond criticism, I only ask that when said criticism is being expressed that it's done so in a respectful manner and isn't a personal attack.

Did you not read my post? lol I was talking to Concupiscible when I said "Are people not allowed to ever mention any negative experience for fear of being perceived as churlish?", not you Jackie. In fact I was talking to her for the whole post of mine you have quoted.

And as I pointed out my post about the vendor followed everything you said it should. Even the "benefit of the doubt" thing!

I don't know why you think my post to Concupiscible was directed to you, I even quoted her which kind of makes it clear who I was talking to. You have mixed up what I said.

I agreed with your first post!

Edited by stonebear, 05 December 2010 - 06:54 PM.

[Jackie]

In that case, my apologies. I realise you quoted Concs, but sometimes a quote doesn't indicate a direct reply but a springboard for a general point, which is how I (obviously wrongly) perceived it.

[stonebear]

Jackie, on 05 December 2010 - 06:54 PM, said:

In that case, my apologies. I realise you quoted Concs, but sometimes a quote doesn't indicate a direct reply but a springboard for a general point, which is how I (obviously wrongly) perceived it.

It was a direct reply. I totally agree with everything you said in the original post.

[Alice]

In response to you Stonebear, it is not because people have issue with vendors and write about it - AT ALL, that I mentioned it. Certainly no one should be put off asking valid and reasonable advice from the forum, and if you are unused to dealing with certain vendors then it's reasonable to enquire if your issue/problem is one that others share, particularly if you are not getting reply from the vendor themselves.

My target is not reasonable questions being asked, or even a quibble with an order, or an outright complaint at service, my exact words were "knocking". Using personal insult, calling them names, or other people with their own axes to grind jumping into a query thread and shooting their own ammunition at the ones they don't like (for whatever reasons)

My example would be: New customer has placed one order and there is a problem - "I have had an issue with a supplier and wonder if anyone shares it? I'm concerned I haven't heard back from them" or "This company is SHIT and crooked and no one should ever use them" followed by 30 posts by villagers with pitchforks.

Customer service is a very tricky business, I am very familiar with it. Sometimes the way the problem is approached by the customer is just as contributory to bad aftercare as the vendor's responsibilities. Although I am IN NO WAY, suggesting that is the case with you.

But this is what my original post here was touching on, everyone seems very quick to believe they are being attacked, taking things very personally - it's a chicken and egg situation, a little respect for each other was at the core of this forum, and that is what I meant.

I'm sorry Jackie that I wrote a post that can be misconstrued on a very clear and very much supported by me, thread.

[stonebear]

Thanks Conc, I took your remarks as applying to my case as though you were questioning my right to voice my concerns when actually you were talking about "knocking" vendors (which I haven't and you weren't suggesting I had) and I agree that there is no call to go knocking anyone. I think I am a bit frustrated about my situation and therefore too touchy, I am sorry.

[Jackie]

Concupiscible, on 05 December 2010 - 08:52 PM, said:

I'm sorry Jackie that I wrote a post that can be misconstrued on a very clear and very much supported by me, thread.

No need to apologise at all, and I think you did a great job of clearing up any misunderstanding.

[Trog]

Quote

It is like the forum equivalent of road-rage, people say stuff in type that they would never say to a persons face, maybe because they would get a punch.

close to the nitty gritty point stonebear..

what happens in a world where there are no "punches"... Jackie is basically saying only her and the mods can deliver "punches".. in a sense a kind of totalitarian form of "nice" censorship..an ultimate nanny state with banishment for those who dont agree or more accurately dont fit in..

being polite and respect cos you might get a "punch" has worked for centuries.. a wee bit like a naughty kid getting a slap.. it aint civilized by modern standards but it works.. so far i dont kind of like what i see replacing it..

kids still use the old rules amongst themselves.. forum kids should be allowed the same rights.. mum should only step in as a last resort.. and snitching to mum should not be encouraged.. its the raod to ultimate dictatorship.. let the kids slap each other a bit jackie in the end just like with real kids it all sorts itself out.. you have the power to step in if needed use that power wisely..

locking threads aint a good thing it all festers up again.. if you have to do it at least warn the kids (in the thread) first..

and there are kids on here who kind of act like they are having a little private conversion.. a cosy sense of security (the cause of road rage) builds up.. just remember its all public and the walls have ears.. learn to get back what you give out.. and life aint all nice and fun even here..

and above all... if the cap fits wear it... he he he

trog

[nosmo]

I subscribe to various other forums and I have got to say this is probably the most aggressive one.

Zebbydog and I use a home brew forum so I know he will back me up......moderation on there is just about non existent (there are no mods just the administrator who hardly ever logs in) but there is very, very rarely a crossed word.

Drink was mentioned by Jackie, the people over on the HB site are probably pizzed half the time when posting but still manage to stay friendly and chilled.

Jackie, on 04 December 2010 - 06:03 PM, said:

Think about your wording before posting. I don't think that's too much to ask. If you feel it is (and I realise not everyone will agree with everything I've written) then perhaps you would prefer to be at another forum that suits your preferences better. I don't like upsetting people but I'm afraid I / we are not willing to let the current atmosphere prevail. One of the things at the heart of this forum is a desire to help new users - I doubt we'll be seeing too many of those staying if at every turn they're faced with tension.

+1

[Dave]

Quote

and life aint all nice and fun even here..

Very true... but theres one iney weeny tiny point though...

Its Jackies house and when peeps come around and visit .. then they have to fit into Jackies house rules (of which there are very few requirements)

[hifistud]

Wow!! If you think this is an aggressive forum, there are a few I've been on that are more or less permanently in a state of flame war! This is very, very mild in comparison. Yes, it flares up every so often - I've yet to find a forum that doesn't - and, to some degree, I'm with Trog, I think it's possibly best left to peter out on its own - or moved to the "adults only" (wild side) section where it does least harm.

But, if there's a clash, it's going to happen. It always does.

The difference between here and other places is the kind of "fanboy" thing. Certain personalities have a very dedicated flock of followers. Those personalities may inhabit a particular stance, a stance that other folks simply can't get on with. The thing is, if they're attacked - even politely - the "fanboys" immediately rally to the defence. That's how flame wars start - and I'm as guilty as any of being involved and even starting a few. The big difference is, I'd say it to somebody's face!

[nosmo]

hifistud, on 06 December 2010 - 12:09 PM, said:

Wow!! If you think this is an aggressive forum, there are a few I've been on that are more or less permanently in a state of flame war! This is very, very mild in comparison.

The most aggressive of the forums I subscribe to Dave.......if I don't like the atmosphere on a forum I just unsubscribe

[Jaded]

I have always found this to be the most reasonable and reasoned e-cig forum on the net. True, it has recently sky-rocketed in popularity and with good reason - it's very good. Always, as with every forum, broader membership brings broader extremes of attitude and expression. More often than not this is a good thing and the forum is enriched. However it also means there are more bumped heads, bruised egos, and out-there bonkers-ness. Such are the penalties of being popular.

Oh, that and clearly snow and the run up to Christmas seem to disagree with a lot of the vaping community...

[Trog]

Dave, on 06 December 2010 - 12:06 PM, said:

Quote

and life aint all nice and fun even here..

Very true... but theres one iney weeny tiny point though...

Its Jackies house and when peeps come around and visit .. then they have to fit into Jackies house rules (of which there are very few requirements)

another interesting point dave.. in a sense its a "public house" lets not pretend its like a real domicile where only few a close friends are permitted.. jackie is a wee bit like a landlord and we all know just how unfriendly some small pubs can be to none "locals.. jackie is the boss without a doubt but your friendly little "home" analogy is a poor one..

as to the other dave "saying it to their face" well yep but that is in danger of becoming against the "be nice all the time" rules..it could be considered a personal attack which seems to no longer be permitted..

my advice to newcomer is read and be entertained.. ask daft questions if you like just be careful about playing the points scoring pecking order game.. its time this place grew a bit.. its been too "local" for too long..

being too "local" aint good and it does keep newcomers away.. i assume jackie wants it too grow.. perhaps i am wrong in doing this.. dunno..

trog

ps.. being "local" and scoring points of each other is at the heart of most of the bitching..

Edited by Trog, 06 December 2010 - 02:47 PM.