34 replies to this topic

[Crundy]

Thought I'd pen a quick note about the above.

While Nicotine itself has not been shown to be carcinogenic, its cholinergic action has been shown to reduce cellular apoptosis (programmed cell death)[1] and current research therefore points to nicotine use creating a more favourable environment for cancerous cells to develop and to also inhibit the effectiveness of cancer treatments. Bearing in mind that short term studies showed that nicotine content seems to come last in a list of stimuli craved by smokers / vapers[2] (which probably explains the inefficiency of NRT), it might be best to start thinking about reducing the nicotine content in your eLiquid, especially if you have switched to eCigs because of a cancer scare from the doctor.

[acousticvillage]

Sure...ok....but this is a little like saying because people live longer they arte therefore more at risk of cancer (or nay other disease). So should the answer be to stop trying to improve people's life-span?

If what happens is that cell death is reduced, and this causes a "more favourable environment" for cancerous cells.....then waddya do? I can't worry about it.

Knowing my luck, after 35 of smoking I probably will end up with cancer....I'm just going to be bloody angry if it is cancer of something that any non-smoker could get!!

[Crundy]

acousticvillage, on 21 March 2011 - 04:03 PM, said:

Sure...ok....but this is a little like saying because people live longer they arte therefore more at risk of cancer (or nay other disease). So should the answer be to stop trying to improve people's life-span?

If what happens is that cell death is reduced, and this causes a "more favourable environment" for cancerous cells.....then waddya do? I can't worry about it.

Knowing my luck, after 35 of smoking I probably will end up with cancer....I'm just going to be bloody angry if it is cancer of something that any non-smoker could get!!

Oh sure, it's obviously your decision at the end of the day and I'm not going to turn into a niconazi (wow, new word?). Point is, I'm interested in finding out all the potential harms of eSmoking (as few as they may be) and trying to find solutions for them so we can carry on vaping without long-term health effects. So far the only notable worry is the nicotine itself, and so for those concerned about cancer (especially people who have switched to eCigs after being diagnosed with cancer and are currently on chemo or radio etc) it's something they should be informed of.

Personally I'm going to look at reducing my nic concentration in light of this. Better safe than sorry and all that.

[Onceupon]

And don't forget the impotence

[frog]

Nicotine improves brain function. When I am using zero nic I feel dumber. Dumb enough to walk out into the road and get hit by a car? Possibly, not risking it.....

[grizwald56]

Nicotine also has benefits such as in the treatment of Alzheimers and Parkinsons where clinical trials have shown a marked slowing of the onset of both. Also nicotine helps concentration in people with ADHT. However, trials are still in progress.

Personally as a 46 year ex-smoker I can't do without my nicotine. So if I get Cancer, so be it. At least I'm not taking in all those other harmful chemicals that are in cigarettes.

I LOVE MY NICOTINE! I NEED MY NICOTINE! AND GOD HELP ANYONE WHO TRIES TO TAKE IT FROM ME!

[westcoast2]

Crundy, on 21 March 2011 - 04:12 PM, said:

Personally I'm going to look at reducing my nic concentration in light of this. Better safe than sorry and all that.

Do you know the concentration of Nicotine that inhibited apoptosis? Do you know the levels introduced at various vaping nic levels?

This study was from 1993 and suggested further research. Are they any further papers?

The authors mentioned that a possible (though unlikely) contaminant caused the effect. Are there any follow-up papers discounting this possibility?

[acousticvillage]

Onceupon, on 21 March 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

And don't forget the impotence

Ahhh....is THAT what caused it? Here's me telling the wife it was stress at work!

[Bluemagnum]

Onceupon, on 21 March 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

And don't forget the impotence

Just ordered a new suit and bowler hat. Dr says i'm impotent, aas gotta look impotant.

[hifistud]

Just don't drink the grapefruit juice...

[badger67]

frog, on 21 March 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:

Nicotine improves brain function. When I am using zero nic I feel dumber. Dumb enough to walk out into the road and get hit by a car? Possibly, not risking it.....

HAha lols or a benson &hedges truck!!!!!!!

[Crundy]

westcoast2, on 21 March 2011 - 07:43 PM, said:

Do you know the concentration of Nicotine that inhibited apoptosis? Do you know the levels introduced at various vaping nic levels?

The full text says:

Quote

Nicotine caused a dose-dependent inhibition of TNF-induced digestion of DNA. Nicotine completely abolished apoptosis at a concentration of 1.0 mM and suppressed 60-70% of DNA fragmentation at 0.1 mM.

So can someone work out 0.1mM into mg/l? Molar mass of nicotine is 162.26 g/mol.

westcoast2, on 21 March 2011 - 07:43 PM, said:

This study was from 1993 and suggested further research. Are they any further papers?

The authors mentioned that a possible (though unlikely) contaminant caused the effect. Are there any follow-up papers discounting this possibility?

There are lots of follow up papers which cite the original, see below the abstract, e.g:

"Long-term Nicotine Exposure-Induced Chemoresistance Is Mediated by Activation of Stat3 and Downregulation of ERK1/2 via nAChR and Beta-Adrenoceptors in Human Bladder Cancer Cells "

"Nicotine Enhances the Antiapoptotic Function of Mcl-1 through Phosphorylation"

"Nicotine Stimulates Human Lung Cancer Cell Growth by Inducing Fibronectin Expression"

"Nicotine inhibits cardiac apoptosis induced by lipopolysaccharide in rats "

So it seems a legit concern.

[Crundy]

That last paper states:

Quote

Over-the-counter nicotine produces sustained levels (10 to 25 ng/ml) that may be antiapoptotic.

[Crundy]

Onceupon, on 21 March 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

And don't forget the impotence

I don't think it's nicotine itself that causes impotence, because nicotine acts on nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChR), whereas erection is mediated through the parasympathetic nervous system and is therefore mediated by muscarinic acetylecholine receptors (mAChR). I suspect the impotence from smoking is due to free radicals in smoke destroying the nitric oxide generated by the endothelium before it reaches the smooth muscle. I'll have a look and see.

[sideards]

If nicotine makes you smarter/think better then I had better get on the NIC as hard as possible so that I can follow this thread

Seriously though, there some very interesting points there, I was previously of the opinion (I had read somewhere and believed that..) vaping devices deliver only NON cancer causing vapour!
Perhaps this statement is still true, as the report you reference seems to indicate, to my mind at least, that nicotine 'stimulates growth' rather than being an actual 'cause' regarding cancerous cells.

I have been so proud of myself for 'giving up cancer' (for the most part anyhow). Now it seems I shall just have to content myself with the other 7999 carcinogens I rarely partake of 'recreationally' anymore!

[Crundy]

sideards, on 22 March 2011 - 12:49 PM, said:

If nicotine makes you smarter/think better then I had better get on the NIC as hard as possible so that I can follow this thread

Seriously though, there some very interesting points there, I was previously of the opinion (I had read somewhere and believed that..) vaping devices deliver only NON cancer causing vapour!
Perhaps this statement is still true, as the report you reference seems to indicate, to my mind at least, that nicotine 'stimulates growth' rather than being an actual 'cause' regarding cancerous cells.

I have been so proud of myself for 'giving up cancer' (for the most part anyhow). Now it seems I shall just have to content myself with the other 7999 carcinogens I rarely partake of 'recreationally' anymore!

Yes, nicotine itself doesn't cause cancer, but may stop cancerous cells from being destroyed by the body or by chemo. But as someone else has pointed out, a metabolite of nicotine (nornicotine) is neuroprotective and delays dementia (although is itself toxic), so you have to take the good with the bad.

[westcoast2]

Crundy, on 22 March 2011 - 09:46 AM, said:

westcoast2, on 21 March 2011 - 07:43 PM, said:

Do you know the concentration of Nicotine that inhibited apoptosis? Do you know the levels introduced at various vaping nic levels?

The full text says:

Quote

Nicotine caused a dose-dependent inhibition of TNF-induced digestion of DNA. Nicotine completely abolished apoptosis at a concentration of 1.0 mM and suppressed 60-70% of DNA fragmentation at 0.1 mM.

So can someone work out 0.1mM into mg/l? Molar mass of nicotine is 162.26 g/mol.

westcoast2, on 21 March 2011 - 07:43 PM, said:

This study was from 1993 and suggested further research. Are they any further papers?

The authors mentioned that a possible (though unlikely) contaminant caused the effect. Are there any follow-up papers discounting this possibility?

There are lots of follow up papers which cite the original, see below the abstract, e.g:

"Long-term Nicotine Exposure-Induced Chemoresistance Is Mediated by Activation of Stat3 and Downregulation of ERK1/2 via nAChR and Beta-Adrenoceptors in Human Bladder Cancer Cells "

"Nicotine Enhances the Antiapoptotic Function of Mcl-1 through Phosphorylation"

"Nicotine Stimulates Human Lung Cancer Cell Growth by Inducing Fibronectin Expression"

"Nicotine inhibits cardiac apoptosis induced by lipopolysaccharide in rats "

So it seems a legit concern.

Some interesting (and technical) papers. It is a legit concern and some of the results suggest a pathway forward for treatment. The papers do still contain uncertainty about the mechanism.

Given the use of NRT, this issue would have been expected to have been a big concern. Yet, it seems, not enough to warrant dose restriction or use by minors. The last study suggested

Quote

Nicotine may be a novel therapy to inhibit cardiac apoptosis. Nicotine is a safe, over-the-counter medication used in smoking cessation and to treat ulcerative colitis, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, and Tourette’s syndrome (16,17). Nicotine patches and gum produce sustained blood nicotine levels of 10 to 25 ng/ml for over 24 h (17). Although nicotine has adverse cardiovascular effects when combined with cardiotoxic substances in smoking (18), nicotine can be used safely as a medication even in patients with cardiac disease (18–20).

This is interesting in that it suggests the inhibition of cardiac apoptosis by Nicotine is beneficial.

[Crundy]

westcoast2, on 22 March 2011 - 01:17 PM, said:

Given the use of NRT, this issue would have been expected to have been a big concern.

Probably because NRT is a temporary therapy and seen as safer than smoking.

westcoast2, on 22 March 2011 - 01:17 PM, said:

The last study suggested

Quote

Nicotine may be a novel therapy to inhibit cardiac apoptosis. Nicotine is a safe, over-the-counter medication used in smoking cessation and to treat ulcerative colitis, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, and Tourette’s syndrome (16,17). Nicotine patches and gum produce sustained blood nicotine levels of 10 to 25 ng/ml for over 24 h (17). Although nicotine has adverse cardiovascular effects when combined with cardiotoxic substances in smoking (18), nicotine can be used safely as a medication even in patients with cardiac disease (18–20).

This is interesting in that it suggests the inhibition of cardiac apoptosis by Nicotine is beneficial.

That is interesting. Presumably excessive apoptosis in cardiac cells cells is a condition that could potentially be treated with nicotine?

[wdstckdrvape]

Nicotine has been shown to have no effect on lung tumor growth or induction, with a few suspect studies. It is because Smoking=nicotine in many scientific minds and the populace. Nicotine is a promotor of tumor growth in certain pancreatic cancers- but does not induce formation.

Edited by wdstckdrvape, 18 May 2011 - 04:51 AM.

[rawveg]

acousticvillage, on 21 March 2011 - 09:52 PM, said:

Onceupon, on 21 March 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

And don't forget the impotence

Ahhh....is THAT what caused it? Here's me telling the wife it was stress at work!

I always have to be a contrary Mary.... does the exact opposite for me, so no way am I giving up my Nicotine... mind you, my missus does say that my brain is in my pants, so maybe that theory of increasing brain function is actually a very valid point


Tim