33 replies to this topic

[PapaLazarou]

Yes you can't really compare. Another example of less concentrated flavourings are DV's Black Label Tobacco flavours which I personally use at 10-15% in DIY mixing (and I think I tend to go light on the flavour compared to some). I think most of the DV BL Tobacco's would not give any significant flavour at 2%, while the Flavourart tobacco's would generally taste disgusting and over-flavoured at 10-15%. Not all "concentrates" are equal for sure.

[Zolabud]

Did I hear / read somewhere that Menthol is the 'purest' concentrate to use ?

[grizwald56]

Lisaf01, on 27 July 2011 - 11:19 PM, said:

Lemzip, on 27 July 2011 - 08:33 PM, said:

yes but thats the flavour, its not just super concentrated compared to the difference, the flavour is just stronger.

I still think the same that 20% of a mix when 1/5 of the actual ingredients you are vaping in the mix is flavour, surely this is much worse then 1% no matter what the actual flavour is like once its mixed, its still 20% of the final product.

Please correct me if im wrong, im more then happy to put my hands up and say i suck bad at maths

Exactly right. When you are talking the extremely concentrated flavourart tobacco flavourings for example, 1-2% of one of those might be exactly the same as 5-10% of another concentrate or 20% of another concentrate. With my RY4 concentrate for example - it's not strictly a concentrate in the same sense as many of the others and using it at 20% is not at all the same as using a Flavourart concentrate at that level. It's simply not possible to compare different flavourings offered by different companies and extrapolate that those that require higher concentrations could be more dangerous - it's simply that they are likely to be less concentrated in the first place.

I always recommend that you use less flavouring than you think you need and the majority of my flavour concentrates work nicely at 5-10% but the RY4 is unusual in this as it's more diluted with VG and PG and there's unfortunately nothing I can do about this one as I don't directly control the recipe of it.

Very well put Lisa.

[PapaLazarou]

Zolabud, on 28 July 2011 - 12:49 AM, said:

Did I hear / read somewhere that Menthol is the 'purest' concentrate to use ?

I guess that menthol is one of the simplest flavours - menthol crystal and carrier, although a manufacturer could potentially add other things to it.

[Crundy]

In all the PDFs they state the maximum concentration tested is "1ml/ml". Does that mean it was pure flavoring (100%) or is that a typo and they mean 1mg/ml? If I am reading this right then the PeriqueBlack was only found to be toxic at 25% concentration and above.

Bear in mind though that these studies are acute studies and not chronic, therefore we don't know if something that is safe at standard concentrations in the short term is necessarily safe to use over several years. Also, these are in vitro studies and not in vivo, and I know from personal experience (we did a practical at uni to show this) that in vitro effects can be the complete opposite of in vivo effects.

What the studies do show is something we knew all along: as far as acute exposure is concerned, vaping is considerably safer than smoking.

[PapaLazarou]

Crundy, on 28 July 2011 - 10:07 AM, said:

In all the PDFs they state the maximum concentration tested is "1ml/ml". Does that mean it was pure flavoring (100%) or is that a typo and they mean 1mg/ml? If I am reading this right then the PeriqueBlack was only found to be toxic at 25% concentration and above.

Yes that's something I wondered about. Having read through the PDF my understanding is that the vapour was collected and condensed, and the condensed smoke/vapour was then tested at various dilutions. I assume that there must be some reason for testing at different dilutions (would lung cells ever be exposed to pure condensed vapour in practice?). The PB was supplied to the lab by F'art in the form of 9mg "Heaven Juice" containing 2% flavouring. There is no mention of them being provided with pure flavour concentrates.

"Cells are seeded in 96 wells plates, for 24 h in DMEM + 10% FBS. Condensed electronic cigarette is added with 5 scalar dilutions ranging from 1 to 0.03125 ml/ml. For each dilution, 3 replica were performed. At the end of the incubation, cells are tested for vitality with the citotoxicity (MTT assay). Untreated cells were used as negative control. The MTT assay is able to evaluate the toxic impact of the tested compound on the cells viability."

Quote

Bear in mind though that these studies are acute studies and not chronic, therefore we don't know if something that is safe at standard concentrations in the short term is necessarily safe to use over several years. Also, these are in vitro studies and not in vivo, and I know from personal experience (we did a practical at uni to show this) that in vitro effects can be the complete opposite of in vivo effects.

What the studies do show is something we knew all along: as far as acute exposure is concerned, vaping is considerably safer than smoking.

That's interesting about in vitro/in vivo studies giving opposite results. An in vivo study entails animal testing doesn't it?

[Kenny]

Buy unflavoured nic PG or VG and add your own menthol bought from chemist to taste. This seems to me to be the safest way to vape. There are too many flavours out now IMO and it will take research in some magnitude to find out what harmful toxins are in them.

What amazes me is that vendors are introducing new flavours all the time but don't seem to know whats in them.

Vendors should not be allowed to sell these without being able to say they are safe.

Accident waiting to happen at sometime I think so hope you are all well insured.

Rant over.

[Crundy]

PapaLazarou, on 28 July 2011 - 10:36 AM, said:

That's interesting about in vitro/in vivo studies giving opposite results. An in vivo study entails animal testing doesn't it?

Well, both do. In vivo is using a whole animal and in vitro is using a tissue sample. In these experiements they were exposing a section of lung tissue to smoke and vapour.

[spikeychops]

Papa, 'In Vitro' can be thought of as 'outside of the body', In Vivo 'inside the body'.

[Crundy]

spikeychops, on 29 July 2011 - 10:30 AM, said:

Papa, 'In Vitro' can be thought of as 'outside of the body', In Vivo 'inside the body'.

And "In Utero" can be thought of as "cool album that got screwed up by the record label".

[spikeychops]

Crundy, on 29 July 2011 - 11:08 AM, said:

spikeychops, on 29 July 2011 - 10:30 AM, said:

Papa, 'In Vitro' can be thought of as 'outside of the body', In Vivo 'inside the body'.

And "In Utero" can be thought of as "cool album that got screwed up by the record label".

Poor old Kurt...has it really been 17 years? Blimey, i'm feeling old.

[PapaLazarou]

Crundy, on 29 July 2011 - 09:26 AM, said:

PapaLazarou, on 28 July 2011 - 10:36 AM, said:

That's interesting about in vitro/in vivo studies giving opposite results. An in vivo study entails animal testing doesn't it?

Well, both do. In vivo is using a whole animal and in vitro is using a tissue sample. In these experiements they were exposing a section of lung tissue to smoke and vapour.

Appreciate that, but in my mind there's a world of difference between experiments on cell cultures, and forcing beagles or chimps to vape before cutting them up

[PapaLazarou]

There is an update on this here - http://www.flavourar...view&page_id=99

It seems that the original testing was flawed, and that has probably influenced the results. The original testing used a standard 510, with a cartridge, which was held in a vertical position and 120 puffs drawn to obtain the vapour, which was condensed and tested.

Following feedback from e-cig users, they re-tested one of the flavours which showed some evidence of cytotoxicity (MTS Vape Wizard) using a horizontal as well as vertical position for the e-cig, and with 50 puffs instead of 120.

The results clearly show the condensed vapour was (as before) cytotoxic in the 120 puff tests but not cytotoxic in the 50 puff tests. The position did not make much difference.

The probable conclusion is that the cartridge was running dry in the 120 puff test (as anyone who has used a 510 e-cig would have been able to tell them!) and some of what was collected is whatever burnt off once the liquid ran out.

Hopefully they will retest the other flavours at some point using the revised method.

[nudger1964]

Kenny, on 28 July 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:

Buy unflavoured nic PG or VG and add your own menthol bought from chemist to taste. This seems to me to be the safest way to vape. There are too many flavours out now IMO and it will take research in some magnitude to find out what harmful toxins are in them.

What amazes me is that vendors are introducing new flavours all the time but don't seem to know whats in them.

Vendors should not be allowed to sell these without being able to say they are safe.

Accident waiting to happen at sometime I think so hope you are all well insured.

Rant over.

all very well if you like menthol kenny. A lot of folk dont. Cant stand the stuff myself.
Safe is a very subjective term...just having toxicity in itself does not make something unsafe.
i did buy some Glycerine from morrisons. It tasted great just on its own. But then, seeing as it tasted nice, there must be something in it making it taste nice i figure.