101 replies to this topic

[szaxe]

In my opinion nicotine is addictive, however some don't.

I do a lot of things that are ritualistic and not related to prior phsycholigical reasons such as thumb sucking, nail biting and they can be stopped without problem.

I don't believe that twenty lolipops a day habit for several weeks would turn into an addiction like twenty cigs a day for the same period.

I wouldn't recommend anyone to try this but it would be interesting to know from any previously none-smoking vapers that vape now either nicotine free ejuice or ejuice with nicotine and ask if it would be difficult/possible to stop vaping.

[Kenny]

Hi Szaxe, I don't fit into the category you asked for as I am an ex smoker so I apologise in advance.

I too believe that nicotine is addictive and don't believe that I could do without my ecig anymore than I could have done without a cigarette when I smoked.

A few days ago I headed out to my nearest town and was about 5 miles into my journey when I realised that I had forgotten my ecig. I totally panicked just as I remember doing when I had forgotten my cigarettes and returned home to retrieve it. This is the first time that this has happened to me in over a year as usually my ecig is stuck to my fingers.

It may be psychological I don't know but one thing I am sure of is that if I could not have access to my ecig for a long period of time I would probably buy cigarettes.

[szaxe]

Kenny, on 03 September 2011 - 05:44 PM, said:

It may be psychological I don't know but one thing I am sure of is that if I could not have access to my ecig for a long period of time I would probably buy cigarettes.

Yes it might, however, like you I don't believe so. I just think ecigs is a spanner in the works for the supporters of "nicotine is not addictive" camp.

Their arguement could not be easily challenged before ecigs, but if none-smoker vapers were getting addicted to ejuice with nicotine and not to nicotine free ejuice, I think those arguements would be seriously challenged.

Edited by szaxe, 03 September 2011 - 06:01 PM.

[Neozero]

Based on my previous failed attempts to quit cigs and the fact my craving to vape matches the craving to smoke, and the craving is quickly appeased by vaping, Nicotine is addictive
I still maintain though that even if I spend the rest of my life vaping, at least it's JUST the nicotine I'm getting and not all the other 3000 or whatever cig toxins. It's the tar that mucks up your lungs! At least I'm never without juice like I often was with cigs.

[szaxe]

szaxe, on 03 September 2011 - 05:27 PM, said:

In my opinion nicotine is addictive, however some don't.

I do a lot of things that are ritualistic and not related to prior phsycholigical reasons such as thumb sucking, nail biting and they can be stopped without problem.

I just re-read the above, I think I should add I don't bite my nails or suck my thumb

[tommk3cab]

I think it is. At the very least by reward pathways, that is what started me smoking in the first place, not sure if the same (or similar)pathways are activated by vaping as even the smoking ones stopped for me a long time before I started vaping.

I would love to test it more.. for example through a replacement of nicotine with something else in my juice to see if something felt missing. The ''something else'' part would have to exactly imitate the TH of nicotine for me though otherwise my brain would convince me something was missing even if all that was actually missing (or changed) was the TH. The addition of this ''something'' would also need to be done by someone else (or by me and then mixed up) so I didn't know if I was vaping nicotine or not.

[Rusty]

I also believe nicotine is addictive, however it is not the only part of the smoking/vaping process that is.

When I switched to vaping exclusively in 2009, I missed the other chemicals in tobacco. I compensated by chain vaping, so much so that I had to lower my liquid strength to around 18mg because the high nicotine liquids (36mg) were giving me too much nicotine and making me feel ill. I then started to feel comfortable vaping and stopped missing whatever I was missing from the smoke. I could even vape no-nics for hours before I felt like I was missing something.

However, after a couple of years, I was getting frustrated by having my 'tooter' in my hand constantly, so reverted to 36mg nicotine liquid again. This time, I could put the ecig down after a few puffs and feel satisfied. This did coincide with me having the odd cig here and there as well - something which I am not ashamed of, because I choose to have one and do not crave one. So there is something missing from eliquid that recent switchers miss (maybe the other alkaloids) BUT once vaping for a while, I stopped craving the 'next fix' that I did when I smoked tobacco only. It is all a bit weird to put into coherent sentences, but I know what I mean

[szaxe]

Rusty, on 03 September 2011 - 07:40 PM, said:

This did coincide with me having the odd cig here and there as well - something which I am not ashamed of, because I choose to have one and do not crave one. So there is something missing from eliquid that recent switchers miss (maybe the other alkaloids) BUT once vaping for a while, I stopped craving the 'next fix' that I did when I smoked tobacco only. It is all a bit weird to put into coherent sentences, but I know what I mean

I don't doubt there are other missing additives and I know your not using that as a way to state nicotine is not addictive, but would emphasize to those that don't think nicotine is addictive, that other addictions don't detract from what I consider as nicotine addiction.

I stated sometime back that I couldn't stand the taste of fags, however I have had a few fags lately. But I can only have one first thing in the morning, if I hold off from my first vape for a while. If I do that fag tastes wonderful, however if I tried to smoke after I have vaped the fags taste awful!!!

Its a bit weird, but i don't know what it means Maybe when I need nicotine I would suck socks, but when I'm sated I'm fussy

[Rusty]

When I am busy (and I haven't been for 3 months!), I can go hours and hours without even thinking about having a toot on my ecig - I could never do that with fags,,,,they were my only thoughts!! So YES I believe nicotine is addictive BUT I believe there is something more in tobacco that is even more addictive.

[acousticvillage]

The answer to the question is "yes". It is not a matter of opinion. Or belief.

However, this is solely related to scientific medical evidence. If you choose to disregard evidence and science, then the question as to whether nicotine is addictive will have as many answers as there are people.

You may as well ask whether the World is flat. There are still many people who believe that it is. Really.

[Rusty]

I do think that the addictiveness of nicotine is overplayed by the powers that be,,,,they reckon it is THE MOST addictive drug - I do NOT.

[Maz]

I had a rough time switching, I'm convinced it's due to the other alkaloids. However I think the main addictive substance is nicotine as however rough it was it was nowt in comparison to nothing at all. The other main tobacco alkaloids are MAOIs, basically anti-depressants used to alter neurotransmitter levels in the brain. Doctors will tell you these are non addictive, yet they will wean you off them, hmmmm. If your brain is used to certain levels of these neurotransmitters 'floating around' and those levels drop it's going to spit its dummy out and you're going to feel it. Correct me if I'm wrong here but that's withdrawal innit?

I'm fine with just nicotine now but stop me vaping and I'll turn into a raging monster, I wasn't that bad with the initial switch to vaping so I think nicotine is the main addictive substance, or at least the most addictive in tobacco.

If that makes any sense at all?

I've seen friends going through heroin withdrawal, so I agree with Rusty on that score. I don't believe nicotine is the most addictive drug in existence, abrupt benzodiazepine withdrawal can actually kill you, so in fact it's utter bollocks.

[Pikeybarsteward]

Yeah dont think the matter is really up to debate , its addictive physiologically ....and psychologically too . Its a beast of an addiction too .... like nothing else in my experience . However if you check the recent 'no satisfaction ' thread you ll see quite a few peeps(meself included ) who cant get their kicks by nicotine alone.

[steffijade]

For me, when it comes to smoking... nicotine wasn't the be all and end all. I used smoking as a tool of sorts and now use vaping in the same way.

That said, a few weeks after starting vaping again, I mixed up a batch of no nic liquid and tried vaping on that. I managed most of the day, but was missing the nicotine hit and ended up back on nic juice by the evening. I have since managed to reduce the nic level in my liquid and at present am mixing around the 5mg mark. I definitely got withdrawal symptoms from using no nic liquid and it was unpleasant, so I won't be going nic free unless forced to.

So yes, nicotine is addictive.... but it's not the only reason why people smoke/vape.

[szaxe]

Rusty, on 03 September 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:

When I am busy (and I haven't been for 3 months!), I can go hours and hours without even thinking about having a toot on my ecig - I could never do that with fags,,,,they were my only thoughts!! So YES I believe nicotine is addictive BUT I believe there is something more in tobacco that is even more addictive.

I don't disagree, but as "acousticvillage" points out we are all different . So I can only go on my own experience. I don't miss smoking, but I believe I don't like the taste of tobacco.

Even though I don't like marmite, in my opinion if it was the only carrier for nicotine I would love marmite. Take away the nicotine and I would then hate it. Those that loved Marmite with or without nicotine would still miss their marmite.

I only vape one flavour and buy bulk flavour. My HC RY4 has run out and I have been vaping Flavourarts RY4 for several days. It was vile for two days, now I can't get enough of it.

I think my addiction affects what I like and dislike. I don't know for sure, but I have vaped everything I have bought, because I am tight and vape it until I love it and i always end up loving it

Edited by szaxe, 03 September 2011 - 08:41 PM.

[westcoast2]

acousticvillage, on 03 September 2011 - 08:25 PM, said:

The answer to the question is "yes". It is not a matter of opinion. Or belief.

However, this is solely related to scientific medical evidence. If you choose to disregard evidence and science, then the question as to whether nicotine is addictive will have as many answers as there are people.

You may as well ask whether the World is flat. There are still many people who believe that it is. Really.

I probably started this debate as the result of a reply in another thread. I am unsure whether Nicotine in cigs is addictive. AV has said it is a matter related to scientific evidence. Could you cite the evidence?

szaxe said

Quote

Yes it might, however, like you I don't believe so. I just think ecigs is a spanner in the works for the supporters of "nicotine is not addictive" camp.

Their arguement could not be easily challenged before ecigs, but if none-smoker vapers were getting addicted to ejuice with nicotine and not to nicotine free ejuice, I think those arguements would be seriously challenged.

Are you aware of any previously non-smoker (or non-tobacco user) who has become 'addicted' to nicotine by using e-cigs?
It does seem Nicotine is selectively 'addictive' depending on the delivery system. NRT is supposedly below the threshold level. So at the minimum it could be argued on this basis that Nicotine only becomes addictive at certain levels. Do e-cigs deliver above or below this threshold? Actualy what is the threshold?

There are two other issues here:
1 e-cigs do show that nicotine is not the only component in cigs that people miss. This is demonstrated by the number of dual users there are and those who go back to cigs.
2 many who use e-cigs have gone to zero nic or at least reduced their nic, Sometimes this occurs after an increase in nic level - which is interesting itself. How is this possible if nicotine is as addictive as claimed?

There is certainly confusion between tobacco and nicotine. There maybe a number of factors in the use of tobacco that account for its abuse, one of these is probably nicotine, others are behavioural (hand to mouth etc),social and possibly another substance or mixture of substances.

The problem with the term 'addiction' is that it has become almost meaningless and has been used for emotional effect. Almost anythng can be 'addictive' from gambling to chocolate. By using this term in conection with tobacco and more specificaly Nicotine, it avoids looking at what it is about cigs that mean people continue to smoke. They may enjoy it though ,as Maz mentioned on the other thread, why in some cases to self-destruction? Simply labeling Nicotine as the 'addicitive' element may allow for easy comparisons to other substances and negative conotations but what it does do is avoid the research needed to find out what is really going on.

DSM IV does have an alcohol addiction model which Nicotine does not fit very well into. There is discussion about the inclusion of Tobacco and Nicotine Dependence in DSM V. Note here the term 'dependence' rather than 'addiction'. From the medical perspective the terms 'Substance Abuse' and 'Dependence' seem to at least be an attempt to get away from the emotive 'addiction'.

Edited by westcoast2, 03 September 2011 - 09:08 PM.

[Pikeybarsteward]

Yeah theres not much I aint vaped , I ve got vanilla (homemade ) menthol ,spearmint(homemade) and my newest addiction pina colada in my 'I hate you ' stash . One day I will vape every drop and thank the lord for it (probably during a postal strike ) .

[steffijade]

westcoast2, on 03 September 2011 - 08:59 PM, said:

acousticvillage, on 03 September 2011 - 08:25 PM, said:

The answer to the question is "yes". It is not a matter of opinion. Or belief.

However, this is solely related to scientific medical evidence. If you choose to disregard evidence and science, then the question as to whether nicotine is addictive will have as many answers as there are people.

You may as well ask whether the World is flat. There are still many people who believe that it is. Really.

I probably started this debate as the result of a reply in another thread. I am unsure whether Nicotine in cigs is addictive. AV has said it is a matter related to scientific evidence. Could you cite the evidence?

szaxe said

Quote

Yes it might, however, like you I don't believe so. I just think ecigs is a spanner in the works for the supporters of "nicotine is not addictive" camp.

Their arguement could not be easily challenged before ecigs, but if none-smoker vapers were getting addicted to ejuice with nicotine and not to nicotine free ejuice, I think those arguements would be seriously challenged.

Are you aware of any previously non-smoker (or non-tobacco user) who has become 'addicted' to nicotine by using e-cigs?
It does seem Nicotine is selectively 'addictive' depending on the delivery system. NRT is supposedly below the threshold level. So at the minimum it could be argued on this basis that Nicotine only becomes addictive at certain levels. Do e-cigs deliver above or below this threshold? Actualy what is the threshold?

There are two other issues here:
1 e-cigs do show that nicotine is not the only component in cigs that people miss. This is demonstrated by the number of dual users there are and those who go back to cigs.
2 many who use e-cigs have gone to zero nic or at least reduced the nic level, Sometimes this occurs after an increase in nic level - which is interesting itself. How is this possible if nicotine were as addictive as claimed.

There is certainly confusion between tobacco and nicotine. There maybe a number of factors in the use of tobacco that account for it abuse, one of these is probably nicotine, others are behavioural (hand to mouth etc) and social.

The problem with the term 'addiction' is that it has become almost meaningless and has been used for emotional effect. Almost anythng can be 'addictive' from gambling to chocolate. By using this term in conection with tobacco and more specificaly Nicotine, it avoids looking at what it is about cigs that mean people continue to smoke. They may enjoy it though ,as Maz mentioned on the other thread, why in some cases to self-destruction? Simply labeling Nicotine as the 'addicitive' element may allow for easy comparisons to other substances and negative conotations but what it does do is avoid the research needed to find out what is really going on.

DSM IV does have an alcohol addiction model which Nicotine does not fit very well into. There is discussion about the inclusion of Tobacco and Nicotine Dependence in DSM V. Note here the term 'dependence' rather than 'addiction'. From the medical perspective the terms 'Substance Abuse' and 'Dependence' seem to at least be an attempt to get away from the emotive 'addiction'.

The anti smoking brigade will seemingly stoop to any level to try and 'denormalise' smokers and smoking. The use of emotive language is only one aspect.. they use emotive imagery, often using images of children and even sexual imagery to try and make smokers feel a sense of shame. They are fully aware of the negative emotional impact that these methods have on smokers and feel no shame themselves in using them because they feel that the ends justify virtually any means.

The distintinction between smoking and vaping needs to be clearly demonstrated, but imho, the anti smoking brigade will try to lump the two together and claim that vaping is just substituting one addiction for another.

[westcoast2]

Maz, on 03 September 2011 - 08:34 PM, said:

I've seen friends going through heroin withdrawal, so I agree with Rusty on that score. I don't believe nicotine is the most addictive drug in existence, abrupt benzodiazepine withdrawal can actually kill you, so in fact it's utter bollocks.

When first introduced this range of 'wonder drugs' were considered non-addictive. It took quite a while before the 'housewifes dream' valium was shown to be highly addictive. Certainly people develop tolerence. Nicotine is odd in this respect. Is tolerence developed? Well some people do go from 1 or 2 to 20 a day. Some even go to 40 or 60. In most cases people find a 'maintenace' level. Again contrast this aspect with other substances considered addictive.

I am not saying Nicotine is not addictive. I am saying I am unsure that Nicotine in cigs is addictive (in the common usage of the term) in the amounts taken. There are I beleive other aspects involved with the use of tobacco that are not being taken into account and which explain why NRT and e-cigs are not 100% effective.

steffijade

Quote

substituting one addiction for another

They could claim swapping 'delivery' system though if they made the subsituting claim (which some started to do) they have an issue with their support for NRT!

Edited by westcoast2, 03 September 2011 - 09:26 PM.

[Pikeybarsteward]

Addiction is when a repetitive behaviour becomes harmful to the individual and society . Chocolate and shopping even cleaning CAN be addictive . As someone whos been addicted to allsorts I find the 'debate' a wee bit daft . We can be all postmodern about it and ask ' what is the nature of addiction really ?Is it just a transaction between disparate identities and value systems ? Or we can be a bit real about it . Would I fight to the death in jail if you tried to take my towel ?Probably not. Would I fight to the death over 2 ounce of burn ? Yes, most definitely ......... trust me, thats addiction and its pretty emotive .