101 replies to this topic

[szaxe]

tricky43, on 03 September 2011 - 11:37 PM, said:

He's absolutely convinced that Nicotine is not an addictive drug.

No disrespect Tricky, but as it appears there is no scientificaly accepted definition of addiction I am going to rely upon my understanding of addiction and consider that I am addicted to nicotine, your brother may think you are not addicted, I don't know what you think, but I am addicted within my definition of addiction.

Edited by szaxe, 04 September 2011 - 12:01 AM.

[Neozero]

Likewise Szaxe.
I'm experimenting here having read a few threads. Tonight, I'm vaping at 18mg. Seem to have solved the throat hit by substituting 5 drops per ml of mix with Vodka (Russian standard no less!) I'm liking the warm feeling it's hitting my windpipe with and satisfied so far. Maybe it's the throat hit I'm addicted to? We'll see.

[westcoast2]

szaxe, on 03 September 2011 - 11:57 PM, said:

tricky43, on 03 September 2011 - 11:37 PM, said:

He's absolutely convinced that Nicotine is not an addictive drug.

No disrespect Tricky, but as it appears there is no scientificaly accepted definition of addiction I am going to rely upon my understanding of addiction and consider that I am addicted to nicotine, your brother may think you are not addicted, I don't know what you think, but I am addicted within my definition of addiction.

This is self fufilling. If you were to change your definition you can instantly become not addicted Could you give your complete definition?

Edited by westcoast2, 04 September 2011 - 12:33 AM.

[szaxe]

westcoast2, on 04 September 2011 - 12:33 AM, said:

szaxe, on 03 September 2011 - 11:57 PM, said:

tricky43, on 03 September 2011 - 11:37 PM, said:

He's absolutely convinced that Nicotine is not an addictive drug.

No disrespect Tricky, but as it appears there is no scientificaly accepted definition of addiction I am going to rely upon my understanding of addiction and consider that I am addicted to nicotine, your brother may think you are not addicted, I don't know what you think, but I am addicted within my definition of addiction.

This is self fufilling. If you were to change your definition you can instantly become not addicted Could you give your complete definition?

I know you were only kidding However I'm sure when you worked with alcoholics you didn't recommend denying or using terms more flattering to their problem/addiction.

Edited by szaxe, 04 September 2011 - 12:46 AM.

[tricky43]

szaxe, on 03 September 2011 - 11:57 PM, said:

I don't know what you think

Neither do I when it comes to this subject, I have very strong opinions about the effectiveness of clearomisers, but on this subject I still have a very open mind.

I also respect some peoples right to believe that clearomisers are effective, even if I do believe them to be misguided I wouldn't want to pick a fight with them on the forum (That's Trog's job).

Chris is the expert on addiction in our family, I'm the expert Auto Electrician, He knows I wouldn't respect his views on vehicle wiring as they would be wholly unqualified.

[szaxe]

westcoast2, on 04 September 2011 - 12:33 AM, said:

Could you give your complete definition?

To give you a general definition I would need to abstain from nicotine for a couple of waking hours. to give a complete definition I would need to abstain until cravings were descending, probably months. I can't properly remember/explain bad experiences like pain or cravings after time has elapsed, but I do know I didn't like them.

To be honest I would love to refrain from my first nic hit (from waking) for two hours, as I would be rewarded with a fantastic hit. But even for reward I can't put off my first nic hit. That pretty much sums up my definition of addiction.

Edited by szaxe, 04 September 2011 - 01:16 AM.

[szaxe]

tricky43, on 04 September 2011 - 12:51 AM, said:

I also respect some peoples right to believe that clearomisers are effective, even if I do believe them to be misguided I wouldn't want to pick a fight with them on the forum (That's Trog's job).

Quote

Chris is the expert on addiction in our family, I'm the expert Auto Electrician, He knows I wouldn't respect his views on vehicle wiring as they would be wholly unqualified.

Good answer, but I'm glad my brother is not an expert on my addiction

Edited by szaxe, 04 September 2011 - 01:13 AM.

[tricky43]

Lots of people have some form of compulsive behaviour that they find it very hard to stop doing regardless of the fact that this behaviour is detrimental to their well being.

compulsive eating

gambling

smoking

an irrational fear of spiders

Chris can help these people by using hypnotherapy, but only if the people he treats are willing to believe that Chris can help them with hypnotherapy.

If you don't believe in hypnotherapy then it's not likely to help you quit smoking

Some people (not many) are able to quit smoking using nicotine replacement therapy, If their doctor convinces them that they need to give up smoking and prescribes them NRT then there is a great deal of faith in the GP that the treatment will be effective, after all the last prescription for antibiotics that he gave them cleared up that ear infection in less than a week.

If you were unable to quit smoking using NRT but easily made the switch to vaping then you could argue that the Nicotine had nothing to do with your compulsion to continue smoking but you found it easier to replace one compulsive behaviour with another very similar one.

Lets consider another drug for a moment
A heroin addict wanting to quit will be put on methadone as a replacement for heroin to prevent the cravings and sickness brought about if they were just to go cold turkey. It's not the same drug and certainly doesn't release the same endorphins in the brain that heroin would. Your smackhead may well be able to stay off the gear by using methadone but it won't be as pleasurable.

Pikey seems to think that going from smoking to vaping is much the same experience for him and other alkaloids present in tobacco are what he craves, these are the things that made smoking so pleasurable for him.

What can't be disputed though is the fact that if you locked Pikey and the smackhead in a room together and made them go cold turkey then Although Pikey would be severely pissed off he wouldn't be vomiting and convulsing like the heroin addict.

Heroin is an addictive substance in the sense that sudden withdrawal causes not only psychological trauma but physical trauma also, that is what is often regarded to be the definition of addiction as opposed to compulsion.

I think that I would like to find 6 really nicely flavoured 0%nic e-juices with a good throat hit to explore this theory.

I smoked cigarettes for 30 years and only made the switch to vaping in the middle of April, I have no idea whether I need nicotine to maintain a stable mental equilibrium or not. I've not tried not vaping. I think I'd like to have a go with 0%nic ejuice first, but the mixes of 0% nic that I've done myself tasted completely rubbish.

[szaxe]

tricky43, on 04 September 2011 - 02:17 AM, said:

Heroin is an addictive substance in the sense that sudden withdrawal causes not only psychological trauma but physical trauma also, that is what is often regarded to be the definition of addiction as opposed to compulsion.

Sorry Tricky but this is the old old example, which I hope your brothers not peddling. Heroin addicts have a different experience than smokers both in pleasure and withdrawal.

I used to have an illegal famous bar made of coaches, on an island in the centre of Amsterdam in the late 70's, you can see the Island, across the ij from Amsterdam Central station.

Every type of addict lived on the squatted island and many frequented the bar. The amount of recovering addicts that have told me that for all the pain of going cold turkey nothing compared with the drip drip cravings of nicotine withdrawal.

I've known a lot more recovering addicts/alcoholics than succesful nicotine quitters.

You would think that someone that can overcome what you and some "experts" consider as "real" addictions would find giving up smoking a doddle. But my experience and from others I've known, that is just bull .

P.s many of us eat, drink, gamble but we don't become addicted, I have not met many that smoke and don't become addicted!!!

Edited by szaxe, 04 September 2011 - 03:02 AM.

[nudger1964]

yeah agree that the term "addiction" is not a particularly good one.
For what its worth, when i hear people talk of nicotine addiction, i generally assume they mean physical dependency, where withrawal causes predictable physical symptoms.
sometimes we do have to nail down the terms we use as i have seen in other threads where addiction has been used by one poster to mean psychological , and by others to mean physical...arguments ensue, but they are really talking about different things

Edited by nudger1964, 04 September 2011 - 09:24 AM.

[Trog]

addictions exist.. lots of thing are "addictive" the word is usually assocoated with "problems"..

obesity is now seen as a "problem".. we are addicted to food.. folks dont want to be fat but given access to too much food they get fat..

its pleasure center sh-t and the way we are built.. its natural .. its because we are built to strive for certain things and not have an abundance of them..

we evolved to survive shortages.. some of us are now spoilt brats and live in a world of abundance.. some of us just like kids in a sweet shop cant handle it.. end of story..

Quote

Having the character or disposition harmed by pampering or oversolicitous attention

i am pretty sure i am addicted to nicotine.. i also think its does me favours as a drug so i am not that much bothered..

other mind altering drugs scare the sh-t out me so i avoid them.. this now includes alcohol.. there is an old fashioned term called "self control".. not something i have ever been overly good at but at least i know what the term means..

we are "designed" to become "addicts" its part of what we are..

trog

ps.. problem addictions are pretty much always based on too much of something.. "too much" is the essence of problem addictions.. self control is the answer.. this also applies to avoidance..

Quote

Deliberately avoiding; keeping away from or preventing from happening

ultimately what we are striving for now is "happyness"... being brought up to believe we have a right to it is part of the "spoilt brat" syndrome.. hedonism is the fancy word for it..

Edited by Trog, 04 September 2011 - 10:16 AM.

[nudger1964]

and that trog post highlights why "addiction" is a lousy word to use perfectly.
Most of what Trog was saying related to psychological dependency, but i am pretty sure the opening post was discussing it as physical dependency.

[Rusty]

Another great post Trog.

Charles Darwin theory of evolution is based around the concept of 'natural selection'. This is where only the best adapted organisms will survive long enough to pass on their genes etc.. Making the 'gene pool' stronger and stronger with successive generations. This also applies to economics, where the term 'survival of the fittest' is more suited (Herbert Spencer).

Unfortunately the human race has been shielded from natural selection by advances in science and medicine and the manipulation of the economically fittest. As a result our gene pool is becoming weaker and weaker. Those in power are becoming more stupid with successive generations, weakening the whole human race.

Striving for something is frowned upon these days, so is allowing failure,,,we are all expected to be uniformly submissive and equally dumb (silent), playing more into the hands of the powers that be.

All I can say to that is **I'm a Lumberjack and I'm OK**

Edited by Rusty, 04 September 2011 - 10:25 AM.

[nudger1964]

a Bastardisation of Origin Of Species if ever i heard one


(only posted that cos one rarely gets a chance to use "bastardisation")

[Pikeybarsteward]

To my mind , addiction is when a repetitve behaviour becomes harmful to the individual or society at large . I believe you CAN be addicted to work ,chocolate or even cleaning . With certain substances theres a physiological dimension ,intrinsic to the substance(heroin tobacco etc ) wheras with the more mundane pleasures (eg gambling ) ,the chemical payoff is provided by your brain chemistry.
The best explanation of the addiction principle I ve seen was from a veteran musician on a Las Vegas documentary . He said when he made his bet and he was waiting for the reels to stop ,or the ball to drop , there was no past ,no future, nothing else mattered ,only the moment . The addict seeks to recreate this 'moment' forever , sometimes with the extremes like hard drugs,sex or danger .more often with the more prosaic like cleaning ,work or smoking .
To my mind there is a distinction between addiction and dependency . If your neighbour spends all his wages servicing a habit he has a dependency issue . If he sells all the stuff in his home,then breaks into your place ...... hes an addict !
With all the rich trappings of our society it can be difficult to see the issue , I dont think anyone who has served at Her Majestys Pleasure (The Priory for poor people ) would doubt the physically compulsive nature of tobacco or the problem of addiction . I ve fronted some very very large men over nothing more than a Rizla or a roll up made out of fag ends . I ve seen a thousand cold turkeys and the most enduring and unpredictable was/is tobacco. I ve seen men seriously hurt with handmade weapons or boiling water ..... The going rate for oral was running at 6.25 grams o burn ... the interest rate on loaned tobacco was 100% a week and vigourously enforced ..... grown men debasing themselves for nothing more than a handful of shredded leaves.
Mind you its become an interesting debate , just one that really affronts the 'addict' nature lurking inside me . I m always gonna need to recreate my 'moment' ,my null point, I ve just learnt to look for it in more functional ways.

EDIT again coz i m a linguistic div!

Edited by Pikeybarsteward, 04 September 2011 - 11:59 AM.

[westcoast2]

szaxe, on 04 September 2011 - 01:05 AM, said:

westcoast2, on 04 September 2011 - 12:33 AM, said:

Could you give your complete definition?

To give you a general definition I would need to abstain from nicotine for a couple of waking hours. to give a complete definition I would need to abstain until cravings were descending, probably months. I can't properly remember/explain bad experiences like pain or cravings after time has elapsed, but I do know I didn't like them.

To be honest I would love to refrain from my first nic hit (from waking) for two hours, as I would be rewarded with a fantastic hit. But even for reward I can't put off my first nic hit. That pretty much sums up my definition of addiction.

Thanks. From other comments there seems to be a wide variation here. There is also a difference between psychological and physical dependence. My experience is different to yours.. I do not really get this 'hit' at all. If I stop for a long while and then have a cig, I sometimes get a dizzy feeling which I do not find pleasurable. I have asked others about this 'Nicotine Hit' as I really do not understand what is meant by it. I also switch between vaping and smoking. I can do either at anytime and it does not seem to be related to any cravings.

With respect your definition is rather narrow and would include obsessive behaviour and perhaps even just enjoyable things. Some people experience this effect with running or going to the gym.

just out of interest, do you sleep the same amount of time each night? My sleep varies. If I am really exhausted I sleep longer. Let's say you sleep for 8 hours and need a cig within 2 hours of waking. What happens if you only sleep for 6 hours or on the other hand 10 hours?

[Trog]

another simple minded trogism..

mind or body.. "if it was not for the mind we would not even know we had a body"

the mind is where it all ends up.. totally original i just invented it.. he he he

knowing the root cause of something aint always a fix for doing something about it though..

trog

ps.. i did actually as an experiment go back to fags for a time.. i aimed at three days i managed one day.. the experiment taught me a few things..

Edited by Trog, 04 September 2011 - 12:29 PM.

[CRF450Rider]

"Nicotine produces physical and mood-altering effects in your brain that are temporarily pleasing. These effects make you want to use nicotine and lead to dependence. At the same time, stopping nicotine use causes withdrawal symptoms, including irritability and anxiety".

"Nicotine meets the criteria of a highly addictive drug. Nicotine is a potent psychoactive drug that induces euphoria, serves as a reinforcer of its use, and leads to nicotine withdrawal syndrome when it is absent. As an addictive drug, nicotine has 2 very potent issues: it is a stimulant and it is also a depressant".

just two quotes from medical journals, obviously these only cover physical and mental symptoms.

There is still a lot to be said about motor function association e.g. hand to mouth movement that mimics a smoking action or chewing a pen/biting nails, are these also an addiction?

Also consider the below differences between determining if your are addicted?


A; forcing yourself to not use a PV with nicotine in it when knowingly, it is there in front of you to freely use

or,

B; physically running out of or having your PV/Nicotine taken away so you have nothing to use.

I know from prior personal experience that both these scenarios have dramatic differences on your mental state, the latter certainly causes extreme anxiety.
(I used to be a heavy drug user (weed/cocaine) and smoker many years ago in my youth, but thankfully i was one of the lucky ones and kicked the addiction and didn't waste my life)

I find i can go a whole day without a vape if i need to and it has little effect on me, by comparison to when i was a smoker.

I have no intention of giving up vaping though!!

Edited by CRF450Rider, 04 September 2011 - 12:43 PM.

[steffijade]

Trog, on 04 September 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

ultimately what we are striving for now is "happyness"... being brought up to believe we have a right to it is part of the "spoilt brat" syndrome.. hedonism is the fancy word for it..

With respect, we live in a largely secular society and a lot of people don't believe in 'afterlife' as such and because of this, they tend to try and enjoy their life while thay actually have the chance.

I agree that there are those that believe thay have automatic entitlement to one thing or another but I think that's been caused by greed, self centredness and a lack of compassion and empathy being seen as the norm. Relating this to addiction, some people will feel they have a right to their addiction and as long as they don't harm anyone else by their actions, I don't see that much harm in the grand scale of things.

If some people can gain solace by clinging to the sackcloth and ashes, then that's fine too.. as long as they don't harm anyone else either.

As regards 'happyness'... see my signature below.

[westcoast2]

CRF450Rider, on 04 September 2011 - 12:42 PM, said:

"Nicotine produces physical and mood-altering effects in your brain that are temporarily pleasing. These effects make you want to use nicotine and lead to dependence. At the same time, stopping nicotine use causes withdrawal symptoms, including irritability and anxiety".

"Nicotine meets the criteria of a highly addictive drug. Nicotine is a potent psychoactive drug that induces euphoria, serves as a reinforcer of its use, and leads to nicotine withdrawal syndrome when it is absent. As an addictive drug, nicotine has 2 very potent issues: it is a stimulant and it is also a depressant".

just two quotes from medical journals, obviously these only cover physical and mental symptoms.

The simple question is if Nicotine is a highly addictive drug why does NRT have a 94% failure rate?
This also goes back to criteria. Certainly the RCP have made similar statements. The WHO have now changed the definition of 'Addiction'

Quote

World Health Organization has defined addiction as: “A state, psychic and sometimes also physical, resulting in the interaction between a living organism and a drug, characterised by behavioural and other responses that always include a compulsion to take the drug on a continuous or periodic basis in order to experience its psychic effects, and sometimes to avoid the discomfort of its absences. Tolerance may or may not be present.”

This definition has been constructed (and differs from previous attempts) in order to include Nicotine. Note that 'tolerance may or may not be present' has now been added since this was a clear issue with Nicotine. We also run into semantics again with words such as 'compulsion'. Using this definition, Coffee is clearly addictive. People speak of 'needing' that caffein hit etc. Is this what addiction is really about? So we have a bunch of coffee addicts, and....?

Definitions such as these, as has been said earlier, are of little use if they do not lead to something useful. From what has been written on this thread so far, there are a wide range of both definitions and effects.