28 replies to this topic

[Rusty]

Quote

The Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA) is calling on the Government to review its daily alcohol unit guidelines with a view to increasing the limits.

full story here.

[steffijade]

Most people I know don't take a lot of notice of government guidelines anyway... their alcohol consumption depends largely on how much cash they have to spend... or how pished they happen to be.

[tindaletim]

I heard a radio interview a few years back with a member of the committee that set the current alcohol consumption guidelines.

There's nothing scientific about the figures - they just looked at the previous numbers and halved them.

[Onceupon]

Quote

Millions will return to the pub after the smoking ban.

- 2007

[Rusty]

CAMRA really do not understand or see the bigger picture. The World Health Organisation has a 'hit list' of lifestyle choices that it would like to see denormalised;

1. Nicotine use
2. Alcohol use
3. Eating 'unhealthy' food

First up was nicotine. For years 'junk science' had been floating about the dangers of passive smoking. In 2006 came the Health Act and subsequent smoking bans which CAMRA embraced with open arms.

Many traditional pubs were closing because many smokers chose to stay at home and take advantage of the cheaper off sales and the warmth of their living rooms.

Did CAMRA mourn the pubs that were being forced to close? No, they told them to diversify, find a USP, sell cask ale, sell food, allow kids etc..

When pubs are no longer being used by social drinkers, they are no longer pubs in the traditional sense - a place for adults to relax and enjoy each others company.

So the traditional pubs go, most social drinkers buy supermarket beer and stay at home drinking anti-socially. Alcohol consumption then becomes an anti-social activity,,,what comes next? I'll let the reader decide.

CAMRA shot themselves in the foot 5 years ago and the gangrene is starting to set in. If they honestly think that the Government will take any notice of this plea, they are living in cloud cuckoo land.


Russell VR Ord
CAM-VIP

[HillBill]

I agree that CAMRA should stay out of that one, Rusty. There was an excellent programme a couple of years ago on how bad the system for classifying drugs of all sorts is. Add to that the politicians (representing the people, of course) tinkering with recommendations and its a disaster area. I'm not saying who is right or wrong here because, tbh, I have absolutely no idea; no one seems to be able to put together proper data about the effects and impacts for the individual, the people around them or society at large for me to judge.
All I can say is, that when it comes to alcohol, if I'm driving, then one half pint is my limit for two or three hours in the pub. Any more than that and it does affect my risk taking - and not in a good way. Straight after a meal or with a meal I could handle two but thats it.
I've never been a big drinker because I just don't have the constitution for it but, if I'm not driving, then really its nobody's business how much I drink unless I'm harming others or unless someone gives me a well-researched case for why I'm harming others but just don't know about it yet (eg the taxes it takes to treat me for the ill effects). At the moment, I don't think the govt has the full picture but they certainly have a lot of overworked staff at casualty depts so we need something I think.
Something I've noticed about our local pubs here that might be contributing to their decline is the calibre of the publicans. Time was the publican was a 'host' and one minute could be conducting a conversation with the customers and next minute dealing with someone who had got out of line. Now I see people behaving badly and the publican just stands and watches! Its off-putting for me because who wants to cope with hassle in their leisure hours so I don't go into those pubs anymore because I know I can't trust them enough to be able to relax.

[Maff]

Wonder if they'll when I vape at CAMRA's Norwich Beer Fest? Miss the old days, pubs are too expensive now. My mate hasn't been to a pub since January! I mainly make my own beer, sat next to a bin with 4 and a bit gallons of stout

[Digicig]

Maff, on 29 September 2011 - 10:11 PM, said:

Wonder if they'll when I vape at CAMRA's Norwich Beer Fest? Miss the old days, pubs are too expensive now. My mate hasn't been to a pub since January! I mainly make my own beer, sat next to a bin with 4 and a bit gallons of stout

Assuming the usual laws of Supply and Demand and Economies of Scale etc, and running costs increasing (Utility and price/tax/wage increases) the fewer folk that patronise an establishment the more expensive an individual drink will end up by costing - which further alienates the potential clientèle.

So if anything novel USP's, such as Vaping, should increase patronage and potentially make it more affordable for folk to enjoy the odd social drinkie?

[markyd43]

Digi
I don't think the odd CamVIP night is going to have much affect on the price of a pint but if increased patronage by vapers mean more return for the landlord then it will help some pubs survive. And its these very pubs we want to keep open. Not your huge, cheap food/beer/no atmosphere wetherspoons with bloody great outside smoking areas with expensive patio heaters or your country gastro pubs but your true local where you get to know your landlady/landlord, are recognised and welcomed when you go there and can chew the cud with regulars. Beer in my local isn't cheap (£2.80- £3.20 a pint) but the mere fact they support vaping means they have my custom. I can stroll up to the local wetherspoons and get a pint for under 2 quid but where vaping (indoors) is stealth mode only, everyone there is in a separate group with no interreaction at all,service is non personal (and slow) and basically its a miserable experience unless you too are in a group and are just keeping costs down. My local is owned as part of 'Portfolio' by a group of business characters. I suspect if the profits aren't there they'll drop it. I don't want that.

I get what a USP is though not sure what it stands for so that might be enlightening (Unusual Source of Profit? lol)

[Digicig]

USP = Unique Selling Point - niche market - in the new Marketing/Sales Lexicon!
Apparently it's USP's that can help a business survive/thrive in the current climate

[markyd43]

Thanks Digi. Well my local is not unique because I've managed to vape elsewhere but its certainly the only pub which welcomes it and certainly the only one that had a CamVIP night. Just a pity the press weren't there for some publicity. The landlord has a friend in the local paper and thought he would definitely come but he's been unable to get hold of him.

There'll be a next time..

[Digicig]

Best afternoon 'pub' use to go to in Swindon was the 'Blind Beggar' - run by the Sally Army.
Alcohol free - Really good juice cocktails tho and cheap pool table, darts and crib - that's the kind of place i'd be happy to vape away an afternoon!

Edited by Digicig, 11 December 2011 - 12:01 AM.

[markyd43]

'acohol free' and 'pub' Do these even go together? lol sounds like a charity juice bar,or youth club nice if thats what you want dont get me wrong

[Digicig]

I did say afternoon and definitely 'pub'! Worked as a Assistant Manager in Pub at the time - only place i knew that i could indulge in Pool, Darts and crib (and a fag too at the time!) and not know anyone or feel obliged to drink - before me next shift!

[Rusty]

Having free reign to enjoy yourself with other people away from home is the minimum requirement of a pub. Owt extra just adds to it

[Digicig]

The only way back then i could stop anywhere serving alcohol from seeming like 'home' was to go somewhere alcohol free of an afty!

Agree with thee Rusty - much more noticeable difference in Irish Pubs these tho - the ones that are still open that is!

Edited by Digicig, 11 December 2011 - 01:26 AM.

[Onceupon]

Rusty, on 11 December 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

Having free reign to enjoy yourself with other people away from home is the minimum requirement of a pub. Owt extra just adds to it

Except for certain activities. B(Ann) Summers!

[ean33]

CAMRA...oh so many faults i could take a whole server up with one post...the strange bunch who claim to support real ale....
the producers of the good back hander guide....the people who think they are the be all and end all of good beer

a little back ground, i was once the youngest publican in the west midlands many years ago, my name was above the door at
the tender age of 18yrs and 3 months

i had a real ale pub that sold a minimum of 12 real ales at any one time, even more on a week end and many more when we
held mini beer festivals, the highest amount of different ales at any one time was 47

i left the pub trade at the ripe old age of 25 and a half

in that time CAMRA shunned me--for the simple reason that, i refused to give them free food and a room to hold a meeting, i refused because the function room was booked and the pub was to busy to give them the space they required
the result being i was excluded from the good beer guide for 3 years,

now i had a pub serving over 300 types of real ale every year, a business that offered a friendly place for all to come and sample my wares
food that was reviewed by every local paper and described as to die for
i had CAMRA's dream, a truly free house with no ties what so ever serving good honest cask condition ale and they were sulking

then came the new beer guide and i was in, with in 2 weeks the local branch of CAMRA were regulars and enjoying my pub
the pub i had built up from scratch into a real busy friendly honest boozer....so i banned them and in all honesty i loved the fact that i abused my power just as they did
they asked why and i told them legally i could serve who i wished and refuse service to who ever i deemed unfit to drink in my establishment
they wrote me letters and i even had a threats that i would be removed from the good beer guide....like i needed it, i had survived with out it easily
before

it even made the local papers and in all honesty i revelled in the lime light...and the support from the drinking community was amazing, CAMRA are bullies who want it all there own way and have little understanding of how a pub should run or who it should cater for
they should of thrown there weight behind pubs against the smoking ban not took the easy route...now pubs are dead and people stay at home
the teams who met up for darts, pool, dominoes and crib are few and far between

why because banning smokers broke up a dynamic, give pubs a choice to go smoke free by all means but a ban just killed an institution

CAMRA can now be found lurking in every weatherspoons pub because that is all that is left on most high streets, if they had supported the smaller chains and independents as they were supposed to as they were set up to they wouldn't be in the position they are now

ive been out of the pub game for almost 20 years now but have ties with it as a drinker and an adviser for a few local pubs and my opinion of CAMRA is the same now as it was then CAMRA are now and always have been a joke and i pitty any fool who pays to be a member or buys a good beer guide as a quick google with give you better options and word of mouth will always offer the best way of finding a decent pint

my pub for those interested was in a town called Willenhall and it was called "The Brewers Droop" and even though it was two decades ago people still miss the place and the beer it sold or at least that is what i am told when i venture down that way

[markyd43]

Fantastic post ean33. I'm actually a member. My father was a member in the 70's. I only joined last year seduced by free entry to my local annual beer fezzy and some vouchers for Wetherspoons of which there are 3 in Norwich. However I rarely visit my Wetherspoons pubs. Soulless places. I haven't actually used a single voucher as I prefer real pubs. I won't renew this year.

Your comments about the smoking ban are spot on.

I keep getting invites to the local CAMRA Friday night 5 pub walks. However having seen them visit my local a few weeks back and having witnessed their arrogance and superior attitude to bar staff I consider to be friends I shan't be bothering.
The more I think about it I don't think CAMRA serves any purpose.

Thanks for your detailed post

[prof beard]

I visited the "Brewers Droop"!