185 replies to this topic

[Tommy2bad]

DeethDaa;

Quote

e-cigs should be for ex-smokers,

OK this has come up on another thread and I want to tease it out a bit.

On this and other forums I see a lot of posts that hold the view that vaping is the lesser of two evils and I'm wondering if theirs truth in this.

Smoking kills, thats not an issue, vaping allows people to use nicotine without the mortality. Is this an evil in itself.

Lets say for the sake of argument that caffeine was being acquired in a medium that was proven lethal, would we then abandon it completely or would we accept that caffeine in another medium say tea rather than coffee was acceptable

Is their any justification for the 'failed quitter' attitude?

Isn't nicotine just another stimulant?

Why the extreme attitude of abstinence is the best policy?.

Just chewing the fat here, no hidden agenda to open a vaping for the masses shop with discounts for new adopters.

[prof beard]

I have No problem with describing myself as an ex-smoker. I don't miss smoking and never have any thoughts of smoking. If I couldn't vape I would probably stop using nicotine - but I don't want to and am not even slightly ashamed of that.

Edited by prof beard, 18 October 2011 - 12:24 PM.

[Toby]

Tommy2bad, on 18 October 2011 - 12:19 PM, said:

Is their any justification for the 'failed quitter' attitude?

Yes; because I can't give up...
(although I have never actually tried to quit because I know I couldn't)

[gotmoremilk]

i have two addictions in life caffeine and nicotine and now im pretty sure neither will kill me or massively affect my health. i dont view nicotine any worse than i view caffeine anymore when smoking i was reminded that it was bad for my health by my body with vaping this has disapeared entirely and i have no plans to give up either which is why i never gave up smoking before vaping and even then it wasnt my intention just to cut down how much i smoked

[PapaLazarou]

On a personal level, I really couldn't care less if someone who has never smoked wants to use e-cigs. It's completely their choice, as long as they are of legal age*

However one of the arguments the anti's have (seems to be mainly in the US) is that e-cigs are intended as a 'gateway' to get children hooked. Their theory is that e-cigs (and certain smokeless tobacco products) are offered in 'candy' flavours to appeal to kids, and having started on e-cigs eventually they will make their way over to cigarette smoking. Total bollox, and there is no evidence of this happening whatsoever. The most detailed studies of e-cig users to date have found the overwhelming majority of users are smokers or former smokers, with insignificant numbers of never smokers choosing to vape. But I think if there was significant evidence of non-smokers (especially children) taking up vaping, it would almost certainly be used by 'them' as a weapon against us.

* I believe it's legal in the UK to sell e-cigs to anyone, but thankfully most ethical businesses have an over 18 policy.

[Tommy2bad]

Thanks for the replies so far, got to get back to work now so I'll let you chat among yourselves.

Interesting that its all no so far on the poll.

Anyone on the restriction side? Do you all think E-cigs for everyone that wants em. No fear that marketing will start selling to everyone as a recreational device and even non smokers will take it up.

[samuelmunro]

Nicotine is a strange thing. We use it because it gives us pleasure. Is that pleasure psychosomatic, not sure, perhaps. A lot of us enjoy Alcohol and Caffeine but we would say that we were addicted. I can go days weeks even without dropping a touch of the stuff. But nicotine, not sure if I could say the same. I'm a dual user so I know that the effect is not the same, but, It is more than an adequate substitute. There have been times between pay days etc... that buying a pack of fags was just financially not an option. Luckily with the use of e liquid and my PV of choice, I suffered nothing you would describe as withdrawal symptoms, so they do work in that purpose for me at least. We are all different and we all sit in a different point on the addiction scale.

Are e-cigs for non smokers only? No.

If you had already stopped smoking permanently prior to hearing about electronic cigarettes, you have no need for the device.

I see it as a mechanism for those who can't quit of do not want or need to yet.


read more here: http://ecigusers.com/cigs-smokers/

Edited by samuelmunro, 18 October 2011 - 01:19 PM.

[tyefighter]

PapaLazarou, on 18 October 2011 - 12:48 PM, said:

On a personal level, I really couldn't care less if someone who has never smoked wants to use e-cigs. It's completely their choice, as long as they are of legal age*

However one of the arguments the anti's have (seems to be mainly in the US) is that e-cigs are intended as a 'gateway' to get children hooked. Their theory is that e-cigs (and certain smokeless tobacco products) are offered in 'candy' flavours to appeal to kids, and having started on e-cigs eventually they will make their way over to cigarette smoking. Total bollox, and there is no evidence of this happening whatsoever. The most detailed studies of e-cig users to date have found the overwhelming majority of users are smokers or former smokers, with insignificant numbers of never smokers choosing to vape. But I think if there was significant evidence of non-smokers (especially children) taking up vaping, it would almost certainly be used by 'them' as a weapon against us.

* I believe it's legal in the UK to sell e-cigs to anyone, but thankfully most ethical businesses have an over 18 policy.

wasn't this the same argument they used when alcopops first came onto the market ? probably the best way to get a kid interested in something is to tell them they can't have it.

[tyefighter]

Tommy2bad, on 18 October 2011 - 12:52 PM, said:

Thanks for the replies so far, got to get back to work now so I'll let you chat among yourselves.

Interesting that its all no so far on the poll.

Anyone on the restriction side? Do you all think E-cigs for everyone that wants em. No fear that marketing will start selling to everyone as a recreational device and even non smokers will take it up.

if they could prove that there was no ill effect from vaping in the correct manner then i dont see why everyone over the age of 18 couldn't feel free to use vaping recreationally... of course no nic would be encouraged for non smokers

[Toby]

I'm getting in a muddle because of the topic description - "thinking alowd": is that "thinking aloud" or "thinking allowed"?

I'm thinking about it too much ..lol..

But on topic, there are some that start e-smoking even though they have given up smoking, but really want to smoke again without the smoke...

And a tiny few who have never smoked but want to check it out zero nic stylee...

[HillBill]

I discovered Nicotine while I was at Uni. I had to sit and study for hours on end over a very hot Summer when Edinburgh's water board workers were on strike so we had to boil all the water and there were no fridges in our halls. It was dire, boiling hot, I wasn't sleeping well and I just couldn't concentrate and had one more exam to get through - Maths.
Most of my friends smoked and they all said it helped concentration so I finally cracked and, boy, did it help. It was miraculous, in fact, but it went from a periodic need to a continuous one over the years.
I say ecigs should be for non-smokers if they want it.

Edit - on thinking again, does it matter? I could have become a periodic smoker and so qualified for a switch to ecigs...

Edited by HillBill, 18 October 2011 - 02:22 PM.

[samuelmunro]

HillBill is right, there is reason to think that some may try the ecig to harness the effect nicotine has on concentration and alertness/mental stimulation.

[Kenny]

Toby, on 18 October 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

Tommy2bad, on 18 October 2011 - 12:19 PM, said:

Is their any justification for the 'failed quitter' attitude?

Yes; because I can't give up...
(although I have never actually tried to quit because I know I couldn't)

I agree totally with Toby except that I have tried to stop and couldn't.

If ecigs were banned tomorrow and I could not get hold of supplies I would be back on the fags as I need and love my nic hit.

I believe in free will and just as I chose foolishly to smoke I think that others should be able to choose less foolishly to vape.

[orestes]

lol the answer is unequivocally no. We can't get caught up in the inane mania of sweet things appealing to children. The idea that you should get started on fags and then move over to e-cigs is just ludicrous. If they both do roughly the same thing, but one is completely safe and noncarcinogenic and nonoffensive, both should be free and equal options to the consumer.

It's like there's an illusion suggesting that no one will ever start smoking a cigarette again because they're so evil (unlike the ban which has led to how many thousand pubs going out of business?) but that's not the reality. Only bourgeois twats want to be eco-purists, and that's because they're psychologically unfulfilled and transfer their distress to perceived evils rather than dealing with their issues. But the majority of britons are not bourgeois twats.

I'd continue, but it would get very marxist in the appeal to the factual majority of the working classes vs the socially contrived majority of the middle classes.

Edited by orestes, 18 October 2011 - 04:23 PM.

[szaxe]

Kids vaping and leading to smoking always puzzles me I somehow can't see the back of bike sheds, park benches and street corners populated by alchohol free beer and PV's instead of cheap booze and fags And anyway I would imagine going back to vaping after going onto fags would be easier than going from fags to vaping when you haven't tried vaping.

[Tommy2bad]

Quote

I'm getting in a muddle because of the topic description - "thinking alowd": is that "thinking aloud" or "thinking allowed"?

A bit of both

So dangers of nic are so minimal that use is optional for someone that wants to and can make an informed choice. Thats the position with alcohol which has more restrictions and taxes than E smoking. I'm a bit on that side of the line, on the other hand nic isn't more dangerous than caffeine for a normal healthy adult. It doesn't impair thinking or coordination. Apart from the addiction it seems an innocuous enough habit.

If Gov were to ask you to design legislation to cover eCigs and eLiquid what would you suggest they do?

I'm all questions, I know but it's noticeable the difference here - UK vapers and the attitude on ECF which leans more in the only for quitters camp.

I may torment them with a similar poll.

I'l give my own opinion later, you can tear me apart then

[westcoast2]

orestes, on 18 October 2011 - 04:23 PM, said:

It's like there's an illusion suggesting that no one will ever start smoking a cigarette again because they're so evil (unlike the ban which has led to how many thousand pubs going out of business?) but that's not the reality. Only bourgeois twats want to be eco-purists, and that's because they're psychologically unfulfilled and transfer their distress to perceived evils rather than dealing with their issues. But the majority of britons are not bourgeois twats.

I'd continue, but it would get very marxist in the appeal to the factual majority of the working classes vs the socially contrived majority of the middle classes.

It's the petty bourgeois what done it says Karl and Fred. Political ends, as sad remains, will die. Yes, and you and I agree adult choices are the key.

[gotmoremilk]

why do electronic cigarettes and components need more regulation its already covered enough nicotine is already covered as a poison and its purity is limited due to this to make it safe which is why more purer forms can be purchased in other countries whereas the uk is limited to 75mg/ml. The people trying to regualte with the government are a body which is primarily medical which in my opinion is the wrong way to look at the product im not ill because i use nicotine and this product is not nrt im not using it to quit smoking with the aim of stopping using it as well like patches or gum. regulation in my opinion is part of the scheme to make nicotine seen as evil in any format which will open the doors to taxation and a body like this will be against it as nrt ihas a 95% failure rate but makes vast amounts of money and will not want people cutting into their market.
hmm rant over

[DeethDaa]

I did not realise this was such an emotive issue.

Although my quoted comment is taken slightly out of context, I still stand by it.

I am not coming from a puritan point of view, it is purely for selfish reasons.

I always enjoyed smoking and did/do not want to quit. Vaping has allowed me to do this.

I like the current state e-cigs are in. They are accepted by Average Joe Public because they are seen as self-help devices. I can see no benefit in trying to change this perception. If vaping becomes a recreational pastime in its own right or god-forbid cool, then legislation will not be far behind.

http://ukvapers.com/...in/page__st__20

Edited by DeethDaa, 18 October 2011 - 07:06 PM.

[SimonHite]

Tommy2bad, on 18 October 2011 - 04:37 PM, said:

If Gov were to ask you to design legislation to cover eCigs and eLiquid what would you suggest they do?

I'd tell them to mind their own business, stop creating more legislation, and spend their time getting rid of the mountains of existing bad legislation instead.